3 ms·

May I suggest Switzerland? At least quite close to a democracy in my opinion.

by ojii 13y ago

mercurial 13y ago
Out of curiosity, how much rich/poor disparity do you have? I find it interesting that the political landscape in the Nordic countries is so consensual, as opposed to what you can see elsewhere in Europe, and wonder if that's a consequence of high tax pressure and the smaller difference between social classes.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
If we confuse referendums with democracy, of course. But the basic tenet of a functional democracy is that it is functional (duh). I have some doubts if the swiss model will stay both functional and democratic, in the mid-term future. The referendum about quotas for EU citizens has shown a few disturbing tendencies: It is now possible for a referendum to issue a constitutional crisis where the government does not see a way to implement the referendum without damaging the country. And if I listen to swiss people, they are completely not in agreement over whom they want to oust. Somehow almost all EU citizens are employed, and they want to oust the unemployed like they could even before the referendum. But if the government doesn't oust anyone, it can't implement the referendum. Another danger is that there have been increasingly xenophobic referendums. If this escalation maintains, democratic freedoms will suffer. If anything, referendums do have this tendency of distorting "public opinion" toward the emotional and down right hateful side.
- ojii 13y ago
  How are referendums not democracy? It's just direct democracy as opposed to the far more common representative democracy. It does occasionally result in (in my views) appalling choices, but that doesn't make it non-democratic.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    I said don't confuse referendums with democracy. There is a gut reaction in some people that referendums are inherently democratic. They are not. For one thing a whole string of details has to be gotten right (counter example: The Crimea conquest). For another a system with referendums still has to be a functional democracy. I seriously doubt that any other country than Switzerland will ever be able to incorporate referendums at that scale and still be a working , functional democracy. And then democracy is not democracy without civil and human rights, even for minorities. The reasons are too many to discuss here. For starters someone who is in fear of the state or who fears for his property because the state doesn't protect him, can't vote or be elected freely. But that also means that the majority can't vote to violate these rights for a minority. That's a point about democracy that is increasingly lost in the European democratic tradition and it will lead to ugly results down the road. The extremists are capitalizing on this misconception: They want to restrict the rights of minorities by having referendums. And because of ignorance on the side of the voters, this actually "looks" more democratic...

May I suggest Switzerland? At least quite close to a democracy in my opinion.

by ojii 13y ago

May I suggest Switzerland? At least quite close to a democracy in my opinion.

Out of curiosity, how much rich/poor disparity do you have? I find it interesting that the political landscape in the Nordic countries is so consensual, as opposed to what you can see elsewhere in Europe, and wonder if that's a consequence of high tax pressure and the smaller difference between social classes.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

If we confuse referendums with democracy, of course. But the basic tenet of a functional democracy is that it is functional (duh). I have some doubts if the swiss model will stay both functional and democratic, in the mid-term future. The referendum about quotas for EU citizens has shown a few disturbing tendencies: It is now possible for a referendum to issue a constitutional crisis where the government does not see a way to implement the referendum without damaging the country. And if I listen to swiss people, they are completely not in agreement over whom they want to oust. Somehow almost all EU citizens are employed, and they want to oust the unemployed like they could even before the referendum. But if the government doesn't oust anyone, it can't implement the referendum. Another danger is that there have been increasingly xenophobic referendums. If this escalation maintains, democratic freedoms will suffer. If anything, referendums do have this tendency of distorting "public opinion" toward the emotional and down right hateful side.

ojii 13y ago
How are referendums not democracy? It's just direct democracy as opposed to the far more common representative democracy. It does occasionally result in (in my views) appalling choices, but that doesn't make it non-democratic.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  I said don't confuse referendums with democracy. There is a gut reaction in some people that referendums are inherently democratic. They are not. For one thing a whole string of details has to be gotten right (counter example: The Crimea conquest). For another a system with referendums still has to be a functional democracy. I seriously doubt that any other country than Switzerland will ever be able to incorporate referendums at that scale and still be a working , functional democracy. And then democracy is not democracy without civil and human rights, even for minorities. The reasons are too many to discuss here. For starters someone who is in fear of the state or who fears for his property because the state doesn't protect him, can't vote or be elected freely. But that also means that the majority can't vote to violate these rights for a minority. That's a point about democracy that is increasingly lost in the European democratic tradition and it will lead to ugly results down the road. The extremists are capitalizing on this misconception: They want to restrict the rights of minorities by having referendums. And because of ignorance on the side of the voters, this actually "looks" more democratic...