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What kind of question is that even? If you'd told me before the Snowden/NSA scandal that the NSA or GCHQ were _blackmailing_ clerks, I'd have called it spy fict

What kind of question is that even? If you'd told me before the Snowden/NSA scandal that the NSA or GCHQ were _blackmailing_ clerks, I'd have called it spy fiction. To my knowledge, it was only publically proven that the Russians use these tactics, but the US? And now you are telling me that the NSA compromising the informational integrity of thousands of sysadmins is not surprising since they already used unethical TV-drama bullshit in the past? This raises so many questions. Do you have examples of the NSA blackmailing a clerk?

Intermernet 13y ago
"To my knowledge, it was only publically proven that the Russians use these tactics, but the US?" I've always found it more likely that if any country has been proven to be using these tactics, then Occam's razor states that they all are (if they can afford to). Intelligence agencies may be answerable to governments in theory, but human nature (as well as game theory) show that lack of independent oversight leads to manipulation of the rules. Doesn't matter what country you come from, if you can get away with something with little risk of detection, let alone retribution, you do. This is why laws exist, and why it's inexcusable that any sector of any government should be immune to them.
JabavuAdams 13y ago
> To my knowledge, it was only publically proven that the Russians use these tactics, but the US? This is a very strange belief. I mean I prefer living under US rule to living under Russian rule but the idea that the US has clean hands is laughable. I'm curious -- did you grow up inside the US? I've found that perceptions from inside the US reality-distortion bubble are very different from perceptions even a few hundred kilometres away.
- sentenza 13y ago
  I grew up in Germany during the 90s. Our view was that, while the US doesn't have the figurative "clean hands" (insert vague reminiscence of some half-knowledge about things that happened South America), they were rather "civilized" about things. I DO REALIZE NOW that this was of course a distorted picture of reality, which I think dawned on me around the time the illegal rendition/secret torture prison affair of the CIA came to light. However, compared to the Americans, the Russians were never _too_ discrete about the rough practices of their intelligence agencies. This is what I was refering to: To the current state of my knowledge (which, admittedly I did not update with even a Google search) there are publically known instances of the Russians crushing private individuals by inserting HUMINT into their lives, whereas I don't know of any example involving an American service. Maybe this is also why the Belgacom hack was so shocking to me. I had not previously thought that they (NSA GCHQ) would take apart some poor schmuck who happens to work at the wrong company just to gain access. On a more general note, to me it just seems that bringing down the power of a governmental intelligence agency on an innocent bystander for the sake of a "shortcut" is unethical.
  - JabavuAdams 13y ago
    Interesting. Thanks.

Intermernet 13y ago

"To my knowledge, it was only publically proven that the Russians use these tactics, but the US?" I've always found it more likely that if any country has been proven to be using these tactics, then Occam's razor states that they all are (if they can afford to). Intelligence agencies may be answerable to governments in theory, but human nature (as well as game theory) show that lack of independent oversight leads to manipulation of the rules. Doesn't matter what country you come from, if you can get away with something with little risk of detection, let alone retribution, you do. This is why laws exist, and why it's inexcusable that any sector of any government should be immune to them.

JabavuAdams 13y ago

> To my knowledge, it was only publically proven that the Russians use these tactics, but the US? This is a very strange belief. I mean I prefer living under US rule to living under Russian rule but the idea that the US has clean hands is laughable. I'm curious -- did you grow up inside the US? I've found that perceptions from inside the US reality-distortion bubble are very different from perceptions even a few hundred kilometres away.

sentenza 13y ago
I grew up in Germany during the 90s. Our view was that, while the US doesn't have the figurative "clean hands" (insert vague reminiscence of some half-knowledge about things that happened South America), they were rather "civilized" about things. I DO REALIZE NOW that this was of course a distorted picture of reality, which I think dawned on me around the time the illegal rendition/secret torture prison affair of the CIA came to light. However, compared to the Americans, the Russians were never _too_ discrete about the rough practices of their intelligence agencies. This is what I was refering to: To the current state of my knowledge (which, admittedly I did not update with even a Google search) there are publically known instances of the Russians crushing private individuals by inserting HUMINT into their lives, whereas I don't know of any example involving an American service. Maybe this is also why the Belgacom hack was so shocking to me. I had not previously thought that they (NSA GCHQ) would take apart some poor schmuck who happens to work at the wrong company just to gain access. On a more general note, to me it just seems that bringing down the power of a governmental intelligence agency on an innocent bystander for the sake of a "shortcut" is unethical.
- JabavuAdams 13y ago
  Interesting. Thanks.