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Could we please stop conflating the military and use of it by the government to laws that were enacted long ago to protect consumers when buying a car? The mili

Could we please stop conflating the military and use of it by the government to laws that were enacted long ago to protect consumers when buying a car? The military isn't going to take over a dealership with armed service personnel to keep Tesla from selling their cars. Sheesh.

RexRollman 13y ago
It was just an example of some of the powers the government is given by its people. He's not saying they are equivalent.
- 001sky 13y ago
  Political patronage doesn't require violence. Look at the FED.
  - baddox 13y ago
    By "FED" do you mean the Federal Reserve? While they don't directly engage in violence as far as I know, their powerful influence is due to the dominance of the US dollar, which is established and maintained by violence, in the form of monopoly protection (if you create a competing currency, you go to jail) and taxation.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      Nice theoroy, but their influence is greater within the US than externally (obviously). Most people are manipulated by means other than violence quite effectively, just look at Advertising and other Online Scams.
      - baddox 13y ago
        I don't claim that manipulation is impossible without violence. How do you explain the Fed's tremendous influence in the US (and presumably world) economy?
        res0nat0r 13y ago
        They are in control of an insane amount money.
cubix 13y ago
Not the military, but if Tesla or someone else violated the law, it's no exaggeration to say that at some point law enforcement, i.e. armed personnel, would be involved. Of course, it's unlikely anyone would take it that far, but that doesn't mean force or the threat of force is not at work.
baddox 13y ago
I didn't even mention the military.
socrates1998 13y ago
How do you think personal and private property laws get enforced? Don't be under the illusion that our system is built upon trust and volunteer acceptance. It's built upon overwhelming brute force. >he military isn't going to take over a dealership with armed service personnel to keep Tesla from selling their cars. Who do you think the car dealerships will call when Telsa refuses to shut his stores down? The police. They will confiscate the property, arrest the managers/owners and shut down the business. That is overwhelming brute force whether you call it the military or the police.
- res0nat0r 13y ago
  > Who do you think the car dealerships will call when Telsa refuses to shut his stores down? The police. They will confiscate the property, arrest the managers/owners and shut down the business. I'm going with the court system. Businesses for the most part don't comply with the law because they are worried about a gun being pointed to their head, they are worried about being sued and being put out of business, or being sent to jail for something criminal.
  - baddox 13y ago
    > Businesses for the most part don't comply with the law because they are worried about a gun being pointed to their head, they are worried about being sued and being put out of business, or being sent to jail for something criminal. Those are essentially the same thing. What do you think happens if a court rules that you cannot continue your business, but you do anyway? Or what happens if you are given a jail sentence and you physically resist being moved to jail?
    - res0nat0r 13y ago
      Sure it can eventually come to that, but thinking that businesses operate for the most part in compliance with the law because they are worried about being accosted by the US military is just fear mongering.
      - 13y ago
BrandonMarc 13y ago
... and militarized police swat teams would never be used to, say, raid a barber shop and enforce up-to-date barber licenses. Oh, wait. http://reason.com/archives/2010/12/13/the-swat-team-would-like-to-se http://reason.com/archives/2010/12/13/the-swat-team-would-li... That's right. Floridian police raided several barber shops, with a warrant to ensure the barbers were licensed practitioners, and while they were at it they handcuffed people, held them at gunpoint, and even arrested several for unrelated crimes (coincidence?!). And if only such an event were an outlier ... sadly, it's become common, around the country.
- baddox 13y ago
  Don't forget SWAT teams and farmer's markets: https://www.google.com/search?q=swat+team+farmer%27s+market https://www.google.com/search?q=swat+team+farmer%27s+market
nsxwolf 13y ago
Eventually, they will, if you resist effectively enough. They don't need to use large amounts of force most of the time.
drcube 13y ago
Violence. Guns. These are the threats behind every piece of legislation. Comply, or we'll send the goons with guns to make you comply. That most people go ahead and comply without making the government resort to using violence doesn't mean the violence isn't right there behind every bureaucrat's pen.

RexRollman 13y ago

It was just an example of some of the powers the government is given by its people. He's not saying they are equivalent.

001sky 13y ago
Political patronage doesn't require violence. Look at the FED.
- baddox 13y ago
  By "FED" do you mean the Federal Reserve? While they don't directly engage in violence as far as I know, their powerful influence is due to the dominance of the US dollar, which is established and maintained by violence, in the form of monopoly protection (if you create a competing currency, you go to jail) and taxation.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    Nice theoroy, but their influence is greater within the US than externally (obviously). Most people are manipulated by means other than violence quite effectively, just look at Advertising and other Online Scams.
    - baddox 13y ago
      I don't claim that manipulation is impossible without violence. How do you explain the Fed's tremendous influence in the US (and presumably world) economy?
      - res0nat0r 13y ago
        They are in control of an insane amount money.

cubix 13y ago

Not the military, but if Tesla or someone else violated the law, it's no exaggeration to say that at some point law enforcement, i.e. armed personnel, would be involved. Of course, it's unlikely anyone would take it that far, but that doesn't mean force or the threat of force is not at work.

baddox 13y ago

I didn't even mention the military.

socrates1998 13y ago

How do you think personal and private property laws get enforced? Don't be under the illusion that our system is built upon trust and volunteer acceptance. It's built upon overwhelming brute force. >he military isn't going to take over a dealership with armed service personnel to keep Tesla from selling their cars. Who do you think the car dealerships will call when Telsa refuses to shut his stores down? The police. They will confiscate the property, arrest the managers/owners and shut down the business. That is overwhelming brute force whether you call it the military or the police.

res0nat0r 13y ago
> Who do you think the car dealerships will call when Telsa refuses to shut his stores down? The police. They will confiscate the property, arrest the managers/owners and shut down the business. I'm going with the court system. Businesses for the most part don't comply with the law because they are worried about a gun being pointed to their head, they are worried about being sued and being put out of business, or being sent to jail for something criminal.
- baddox 13y ago
  > Businesses for the most part don't comply with the law because they are worried about a gun being pointed to their head, they are worried about being sued and being put out of business, or being sent to jail for something criminal. Those are essentially the same thing. What do you think happens if a court rules that you cannot continue your business, but you do anyway? Or what happens if you are given a jail sentence and you physically resist being moved to jail?
  - res0nat0r 13y ago
    Sure it can eventually come to that, but thinking that businesses operate for the most part in compliance with the law because they are worried about being accosted by the US military is just fear mongering.
    - 13y ago

BrandonMarc 13y ago

... and militarized police swat teams would never be used to, say, raid a barber shop and enforce up-to-date barber licenses. Oh, wait. http://reason.com/archives/2010/12/13/the-swat-team-would-like-to-se http://reason.com/archives/2010/12/13/the-swat-team-would-li... That's right. Floridian police raided several barber shops, with a warrant to ensure the barbers were licensed practitioners, and while they were at it they handcuffed people, held them at gunpoint, and even arrested several for unrelated crimes (coincidence?!). And if only such an event were an outlier ... sadly, it's become common, around the country.

baddox 13y ago
Don't forget SWAT teams and farmer's markets: https://www.google.com/search?q=swat+team+farmer%27s+market https://www.google.com/search?q=swat+team+farmer%27s+market

nsxwolf 13y ago

Eventually, they will, if you resist effectively enough. They don't need to use large amounts of force most of the time.

drcube 13y ago

Violence. Guns. These are the threats behind every piece of legislation. Comply, or we'll send the goons with guns to make you comply. That most people go ahead and comply without making the government resort to using violence doesn't mean the violence isn't right there behind every bureaucrat's pen.