5 ms·

Windows XP Will Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night

26 points by sally_terp 13y ago

themark 13y ago
It shouldn't be allowed to happen. It's almost like letting public infrastructure fail.
- JTon 13y ago
  In microsoft's defense, they've given plenty of time to prepare for this. It's time to move on. If operators can't afford to upgrade their machines, it might be time to replace them with better operators.
  - Amezarak 13y ago
    While I believe Microsoft is more than justified in retiring XP, I don't think that's fair either. Many people regard their computer as an appliance. To be told that you need to spend several hundred dollars to buy a new computer (or less to buy a new OS and find someone to upgrade you) is hard to swallow. From their perspective, it's working perfectly fine - why should they throw away $400? Does that mean they'll have to do it all over again in a few years? My grandfather was especially perturbed by that idea. I suppose I would be similarly perturbed if someone told me I needed to upgrade or replace my dishwasher even though (as far as I could tell) it was working perfectly fine. (Just to be clear, that's not how I think of it - I am running 8.1 on my old Vista for a reason.)
- jackmaney 13y ago
  No software company is--or should be--obliged to support a product until the end of time.
  - michaelfeathers 13y ago
    Civil engineering seems like a decent analogy for this. People make buildings. There's a chance they could be around for hundreds of years, but the original engineering firm does not have to provide maintenance. If MS isn't going to issue patches, there ought to be some way for someone else to be contracted to. Buildings are essentially open source so that is easy to do. Software isn't necessarily.
    - jimktrains2 13y ago
      And much of the time you tear down a building that is no longer useful or meets your standards. Even though some people may like the building, the building owner can do as they want with it.
      - michaelfeathers 13y ago
        That gets the crux of ownership - is MS selling a revocable license?
        jimktrains2 13y ago
        Just because they're not supporting it doesn't mean you don't own it. As you said, the CE that designed it doesn't need to maintain it, and your license for the design of the building limits your ability to modify the building. My point was that most buildings aren't kept around forever either, as you were implying.
        michaelfeathers 13y ago
        > your license for the design of the building limits your ability to modify the building How?
    - deletes 13y ago
      That is a bad analogy. Unlike software, building take time, people and material resources to build and cost magnitudes more, yet windows can be installed/upgraded in an hour. Microsoft already issued a patch( not that they didn't support XP a long time over its lifespan ), it is called Windows 7, Apple does this as well, with their yearly OS releases, even though in a more clever way.
- mikeash 13y ago
  It's like letting a bridge fail, after advertising that you're going to let it fail for years, and putting up lots of bright neon signs, and orange cones, and barrels, and flashing lights... and people still go out of their way to drive over the bridge because they don't want to learn how to drive over the newer bridge that's just down the road. Microsoft's support of old crap is already at a heroic level. They've already gone above and beyond what anyone should reasonably expect. If people persist in using old junk well after it's obviously a bad idea, that's their own problem.
  - camus2 13y ago
    I agree 100% that's why businesses shouldnt be buying bridges from people that tell their customers there is an expiration date on the infrastructure,that's basically a scam. A bridge should be maintainable and upgradable forever,just like Linux. Windows obviously was a poor choice to begin with !!!
    - mikeash 13y ago
      Bridges regularly get torn down and replaced. Nothing lasts forever, and thus nothing is built to last forever. You want to know one sure way to spot a scam? The person selling you on something tells you that it will last forever.
    - Quiark 13y ago
      wait, xp is not upgradeable to 8? Just like linux 2.0 to 3.whatever is current now??
    - benjaminl 13y ago
      Ubuntu provides five years of support for their LTS releases. The oldest OS that Ubuntu support is from 2010. Red Hat just EOLed an OS from 2003. Debian provides support for previous releases for "about a year or so". While Windows XP was released in 2002, over 12 years ago and Windows XP Embedded will be supported until 2016. So it looks like if you want the longest period of support, your best bet is Windows not Linux.
  - massysett 13y ago
fredmin 13y ago
500 error. must of been hosted from windows xp.
- ntakasaki 13y ago
  It's actually running nginx on Linux.
  - ubercow13 13y ago
    Should have used XP
  - twistedpair 13y ago
    Yeah for headers!
themark 13y ago
Ms should open source xp and let the community fix it
- rplnt 13y ago
  There should not be any XP at this point in time.
  - nfoz 13y ago
    Why not? People can do what they want with their computers. If someone likes XP, they are familiar with it runs on their hardware and their software is working etc., who are you to tell them what to do. The sad thing is they aren't getting security updates. If it was open-sourced, then people could keep their systems secure.
    - rplnt 13y ago
      How would security updates magically appear if XP were open sourced? And do you really think that people that use XP would somehow got to them? Maybe 1 out of 100 users of XP would care and seek how to patch that OS. Hence no one cares about making updates for that OS. For example my Fedora 16 and most installed software on it is open sourced and I don't receive any security updates. Why there are not groups of people making security patches for it? edit: If you are suggesting that users would go back to XP once it's opensourced then you don't have much faith in people.
      - nfoz 13y ago
        > Maybe 1 out of 100 users of XP would care and seek how to patch that OS. That's a good number of people, I think. I would love to see them empowered to maintain their computers however they want. Security updates don't magically happen. But with open source, people who want to do them can put in the effort. That's the point. You could maybe sustain a business of being paid to maintain security updates for this magical open-source-XP. Or maybe some enthusiasts would choose to do it. Maybe they wouldn't. But we'll never know, because opens-source-XP will not exist.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
rplnt 13y ago
The global percentages are not that scary in my opinion. From what I've seen it's under 20% overall, and much better (~14%) for certain groups of users. Of course my source is biased (as is is netmarketshare.com), but it's big enough to be believable.
- jonathansizz 13y ago
  So potentially having tens or hundreds of millions of computers in a giant botnet 2 months from now is not scary?
ericcholis 13y ago
One particular pain point, no SNI support in IE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication Luckily, it would seem that the major non-IE browsers support it (almost) everywhere.
ralphc 13y ago
I've been warning everyone I can about this. Matter of fact my stylist has an second computer with XP in a bad upgrade loop so it doesn't boot. Wired ethernet, just used for browsing. I'll be putting LXLE on it, should handle everything she does on this box.
leoc 13y ago
The interesting thing is that patches for some of these vulnerabilities will actually exist, it's just that you'll have to pay through the nose to get your hands on them: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334577/banks-negotiate-extended-windows-xp-support-for-atm-systems http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334577/banks-negot...
_delirium 13y ago
I recently upgraded my parents from XP to Windows 7, and it wasn't a very pleasant transition. Mostly, miscellaneous peripherals don't work anymore, because the companies never released Win7 drivers. So I can see why some people are holding back. They're older peripherals of course, but perfectly serviceable still, except for the lack of drivers. For the scanner I did actually find a third-party driver package (http://www.hamrick.com/ http://www.hamrick.com/) that'll make it work for $40. But for $40 you can just buy a new scanner and junk the old one, as wasteful as that sounds. It'd be nice if Microsoft would just buy this guy out and include his drivers as Win7 standard. Some scientists I know have bigger upgrade problems, because equipment more specialized than scanners isn't always so easy to replace, and there is a bunch of miscellaneous lab equipment that connects to an XP computer for basic data-logging and control. On the plus side, you can at least isolate those computers from the internet.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Same happen with my parents two years ago with an Epson scanner. As you say, getting a new multi-functions printer/scanner was under 10€ price difference to a third party driver. Which then did as well. This is one area where open source drivers shine, but as software developer I do understand the need of said companies to push for new models.
- Thrymr 13y ago
  Aside: I purchased the professional edition of VueScan (http://www.hamrick.com/ http://www.hamrick.com/) about as long ago as Windows XP came out, and it is still supported for upgrades. Better than bundled software, works on multiple platforms with every scanner I throw at it. One of my best software purchases ever.
camus2 13y ago
Remember the Y2K bug? well you've seen nothing yet with XP going outdated, trust me! But yeah,there is a huge market opportunity for IT firms.! That mess will cost billions to businesses still running on XP...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- wmeredith 13y ago
  If it's "perfectly serviceable" then why do they need to continue to support it?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - JonSkeptic 13y ago
      > in a few months time it might be too much of a risk to have an XP machine with internet access. It's been too much of a risk for several years now. If security is truly a deep concern of your, you wouldn't still be running XP.
    - Amezarak 13y ago
      So who are you going to buy that supports major consumer OS releases for more than 12 years? Ubuntu's LTS support is just three years. Apple's OS X support varies (I think it's current plus past two?) but is < 5 years. So who are you going with?
  - Spooky23 13y ago
    Because it's not just a product, it's an ecosystem. Today, many consumers are buying iPads and Macs. Once they are gone, they aren't coming back.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  A <$100 purchase does not buy an active staff of highly paid developers for multiple decades -- that some people feel otherwise is what's mind-boggling to me. Nothing else I've ever purchased came with a 13 year warranty in the first place. When you talk about never buying a Microsoft product again if they don't service your purchase indefinitely, I really doubt you're applying that same standard to any other company. There's nobody at any company pushing out new versions of firmware for 13 year old wifi routers, new drivers for 13 year old mice, 13 year old printers, 13 year old game consoles...
at-fates-hands 13y ago
We had a client who wouldn't upgrade because they had several key programs that would only run on IE6, one of which included their accounting software. I can only imagine how many hackers are licking their chops right now. I'm pretty sure some groups have been working on exploits for a while now, getting ready for the coming gold rush.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  It's probably time to upgrade clients like that to Windows 7 Professional, and have them run their old apps in XP mode. That's the free Windows XP VM that came with Windows 7.
  - ygra 13y ago
    It's not solving the problem, though, as you then still have an XP machine that cannot be patched anymore. It's just virtual and only runs when the old application runs, but that doesn't necessarily help.
afhsfsfdsss88 13y ago
People can still keep using XP for as long as they want as long as they keep the machine physically disconnected from the internet! The big risk is remote exploitation[most of the time].
wikiburner 13y ago
Anyone know where you can still buy legit copies of Vista? I've got several clients with various systems and software that probably won't run with 7 or 8.
- Already__Taken 13y ago
  If it works it vista there's really very few reasons it won't work in 7 and 8. Vista is what made all the breaking changes.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  Windows Vista has higher system requirements than Windows 7 or 8. If it has Vista drivers, it probably has 7/8 drivers too, they're largely the same. Windows 8 only requires 1GHz and 1GB RAM. Rumor is that Windows 8.2 may drop that to 512MB of RAM to widen the potential hardware base for low-end tablet makers.
- saganus 13y ago
  How come it won't run on Win7 but it will on Vista? I was under the impression that they had the same kernel and other things that made them very similar.
- sentenza 13y ago
  Depends on how you value your time. If you have time to spare, buy crappy old PCs with Vista license keys on Ebay, "harvest" the license keys, install a nice shiny Ubuntu and re-sell them as Computer (No Windows) on Ebay again. Might even be that you'll get a better price for a computer without windows than for one with vista.
bbarn 13y ago
Why is it there's an expectation for MS to support XP for so long, yet people have so little problem with Apple's OS policies? Entire PowerPC architecture abandoned between versions? My last mac was a great little 10 inch ultra-portable, which no more than 6 months after purchase was made obsolete by the Intel macs release. A release upon which, they not only stopped supporting the old OS, they stopped giving people any upgrade path at all for their equipment. Most machines that run XP can be made to run windows 7, albeit without all the bells and whistles. Those that aren't, are likely old enough that they'll probably need replacing soon enough anyway.
- sentenza 13y ago
  Because there are different kinds of "just works". There are those people that want to have a seamlessly integrated UI that just works, so they use Apple. There are those people that want their toolchain to just work, so they use Linux/BSD. And finally, there are those that want their computer to just work until it breaks and they have to buy a new one. Those people are "still on Windows".

26 points by sally_terp 13y ago

themark 13y ago

It shouldn't be allowed to happen. It's almost like letting public infrastructure fail.

JTon 13y ago
In microsoft's defense, they've given plenty of time to prepare for this. It's time to move on. If operators can't afford to upgrade their machines, it might be time to replace them with better operators.
- Amezarak 13y ago
  While I believe Microsoft is more than justified in retiring XP, I don't think that's fair either. Many people regard their computer as an appliance. To be told that you need to spend several hundred dollars to buy a new computer (or less to buy a new OS and find someone to upgrade you) is hard to swallow. From their perspective, it's working perfectly fine - why should they throw away $400? Does that mean they'll have to do it all over again in a few years? My grandfather was especially perturbed by that idea. I suppose I would be similarly perturbed if someone told me I needed to upgrade or replace my dishwasher even though (as far as I could tell) it was working perfectly fine. (Just to be clear, that's not how I think of it - I am running 8.1 on my old Vista for a reason.)
jackmaney 13y ago
No software company is--or should be--obliged to support a product until the end of time.
- michaelfeathers 13y ago
  Civil engineering seems like a decent analogy for this. People make buildings. There's a chance they could be around for hundreds of years, but the original engineering firm does not have to provide maintenance. If MS isn't going to issue patches, there ought to be some way for someone else to be contracted to. Buildings are essentially open source so that is easy to do. Software isn't necessarily.
  - jimktrains2 13y ago
    And much of the time you tear down a building that is no longer useful or meets your standards. Even though some people may like the building, the building owner can do as they want with it.
    - michaelfeathers 13y ago
      That gets the crux of ownership - is MS selling a revocable license?
      - jimktrains2 13y ago
        Just because they're not supporting it doesn't mean you don't own it. As you said, the CE that designed it doesn't need to maintain it, and your license for the design of the building limits your ability to modify the building. My point was that most buildings aren't kept around forever either, as you were implying.
        michaelfeathers 13y ago
        > your license for the design of the building limits your ability to modify the building How?
  - deletes 13y ago
    That is a bad analogy. Unlike software, building take time, people and material resources to build and cost magnitudes more, yet windows can be installed/upgraded in an hour. Microsoft already issued a patch( not that they didn't support XP a long time over its lifespan ), it is called Windows 7, Apple does this as well, with their yearly OS releases, even though in a more clever way.
mikeash 13y ago
It's like letting a bridge fail, after advertising that you're going to let it fail for years, and putting up lots of bright neon signs, and orange cones, and barrels, and flashing lights... and people still go out of their way to drive over the bridge because they don't want to learn how to drive over the newer bridge that's just down the road. Microsoft's support of old crap is already at a heroic level. They've already gone above and beyond what anyone should reasonably expect. If people persist in using old junk well after it's obviously a bad idea, that's their own problem.
- camus2 13y ago
  I agree 100% that's why businesses shouldnt be buying bridges from people that tell their customers there is an expiration date on the infrastructure,that's basically a scam. A bridge should be maintainable and upgradable forever,just like Linux. Windows obviously was a poor choice to begin with !!!
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Bridges regularly get torn down and replaced. Nothing lasts forever, and thus nothing is built to last forever. You want to know one sure way to spot a scam? The person selling you on something tells you that it will last forever.
  - Quiark 13y ago
    wait, xp is not upgradeable to 8? Just like linux 2.0 to 3.whatever is current now??
  - benjaminl 13y ago
    Ubuntu provides five years of support for their LTS releases. The oldest OS that Ubuntu support is from 2010. Red Hat just EOLed an OS from 2003. Debian provides support for previous releases for "about a year or so". While Windows XP was released in 2002, over 12 years ago and Windows XP Embedded will be supported until 2016. So it looks like if you want the longest period of support, your best bet is Windows not Linux.
- massysett 13y ago

fredmin 13y ago

500 error. must of been hosted from windows xp.

ntakasaki 13y ago
It's actually running nginx on Linux.
- ubercow13 13y ago
  Should have used XP
- twistedpair 13y ago
  Yeah for headers!

themark 13y ago

Ms should open source xp and let the community fix it

rplnt 13y ago
There should not be any XP at this point in time.
- nfoz 13y ago
  Why not? People can do what they want with their computers. If someone likes XP, they are familiar with it runs on their hardware and their software is working etc., who are you to tell them what to do. The sad thing is they aren't getting security updates. If it was open-sourced, then people could keep their systems secure.
  - rplnt 13y ago
    How would security updates magically appear if XP were open sourced? And do you really think that people that use XP would somehow got to them? Maybe 1 out of 100 users of XP would care and seek how to patch that OS. Hence no one cares about making updates for that OS. For example my Fedora 16 and most installed software on it is open sourced and I don't receive any security updates. Why there are not groups of people making security patches for it? edit: If you are suggesting that users would go back to XP once it's opensourced then you don't have much faith in people.
    - nfoz 13y ago
      > Maybe 1 out of 100 users of XP would care and seek how to patch that OS. That's a good number of people, I think. I would love to see them empowered to maintain their computers however they want. Security updates don't magically happen. But with open source, people who want to do them can put in the effort. That's the point. You could maybe sustain a business of being paid to maintain security updates for this magical open-source-XP. Or maybe some enthusiasts would choose to do it. Maybe they wouldn't. But we'll never know, because opens-source-XP will not exist.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

rplnt 13y ago

The global percentages are not that scary in my opinion. From what I've seen it's under 20% overall, and much better (~14%) for certain groups of users. Of course my source is biased (as is is netmarketshare.com), but it's big enough to be believable.

jonathansizz 13y ago
So potentially having tens or hundreds of millions of computers in a giant botnet 2 months from now is not scary?

ericcholis 13y ago

One particular pain point, no SNI support in IE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication Luckily, it would seem that the major non-IE browsers support it (almost) everywhere.

ralphc 13y ago

I've been warning everyone I can about this. Matter of fact my stylist has an second computer with XP in a bad upgrade loop so it doesn't boot. Wired ethernet, just used for browsing. I'll be putting LXLE on it, should handle everything she does on this box.

leoc 13y ago

The interesting thing is that patches for some of these vulnerabilities will actually exist, it's just that you'll have to pay through the nose to get your hands on them: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334577/banks-negotiate-extended-windows-xp-support-for-atm-systems http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334577/banks-negot...

_delirium 13y ago

I recently upgraded my parents from XP to Windows 7, and it wasn't a very pleasant transition. Mostly, miscellaneous peripherals don't work anymore, because the companies never released Win7 drivers. So I can see why some people are holding back. They're older peripherals of course, but perfectly serviceable still, except for the lack of drivers. For the scanner I did actually find a third-party driver package (http://www.hamrick.com/ http://www.hamrick.com/) that'll make it work for $40. But for $40 you can just buy a new scanner and junk the old one, as wasteful as that sounds. It'd be nice if Microsoft would just buy this guy out and include his drivers as Win7 standard. Some scientists I know have bigger upgrade problems, because equipment more specialized than scanners isn't always so easy to replace, and there is a bunch of miscellaneous lab equipment that connects to an XP computer for basic data-logging and control. On the plus side, you can at least isolate those computers from the internet.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 13y ago
Same happen with my parents two years ago with an Epson scanner. As you say, getting a new multi-functions printer/scanner was under 10€ price difference to a third party driver. Which then did as well. This is one area where open source drivers shine, but as software developer I do understand the need of said companies to push for new models.
Thrymr 13y ago
Aside: I purchased the professional edition of VueScan (http://www.hamrick.com/ http://www.hamrick.com/) about as long ago as Windows XP came out, and it is still supported for upgrades. Better than bundled software, works on multiple platforms with every scanner I throw at it. One of my best software purchases ever.

camus2 13y ago

Remember the Y2K bug? well you've seen nothing yet with XP going outdated, trust me! But yeah,there is a huge market opportunity for IT firms.! That mess will cost billions to businesses still running on XP...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

wmeredith 13y ago
If it's "perfectly serviceable" then why do they need to continue to support it?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - JonSkeptic 13y ago
    > in a few months time it might be too much of a risk to have an XP machine with internet access. It's been too much of a risk for several years now. If security is truly a deep concern of your, you wouldn't still be running XP.
  - Amezarak 13y ago
    So who are you going to buy that supports major consumer OS releases for more than 12 years? Ubuntu's LTS support is just three years. Apple's OS X support varies (I think it's current plus past two?) but is < 5 years. So who are you going with?
- Spooky23 13y ago
  Because it's not just a product, it's an ecosystem. Today, many consumers are buying iPads and Macs. Once they are gone, they aren't coming back.
dangrossman 13y ago
A <$100 purchase does not buy an active staff of highly paid developers for multiple decades -- that some people feel otherwise is what's mind-boggling to me. Nothing else I've ever purchased came with a 13 year warranty in the first place. When you talk about never buying a Microsoft product again if they don't service your purchase indefinitely, I really doubt you're applying that same standard to any other company. There's nobody at any company pushing out new versions of firmware for 13 year old wifi routers, new drivers for 13 year old mice, 13 year old printers, 13 year old game consoles...

at-fates-hands 13y ago

We had a client who wouldn't upgrade because they had several key programs that would only run on IE6, one of which included their accounting software. I can only imagine how many hackers are licking their chops right now. I'm pretty sure some groups have been working on exploits for a while now, getting ready for the coming gold rush.

dangrossman 13y ago
It's probably time to upgrade clients like that to Windows 7 Professional, and have them run their old apps in XP mode. That's the free Windows XP VM that came with Windows 7.
- ygra 13y ago
  It's not solving the problem, though, as you then still have an XP machine that cannot be patched anymore. It's just virtual and only runs when the old application runs, but that doesn't necessarily help.

afhsfsfdsss88 13y ago

People can still keep using XP for as long as they want as long as they keep the machine physically disconnected from the internet! The big risk is remote exploitation[most of the time].

wikiburner 13y ago

Anyone know where you can still buy legit copies of Vista? I've got several clients with various systems and software that probably won't run with 7 or 8.

Already__Taken 13y ago
If it works it vista there's really very few reasons it won't work in 7 and 8. Vista is what made all the breaking changes.
dangrossman 13y ago
Windows Vista has higher system requirements than Windows 7 or 8. If it has Vista drivers, it probably has 7/8 drivers too, they're largely the same. Windows 8 only requires 1GHz and 1GB RAM. Rumor is that Windows 8.2 may drop that to 512MB of RAM to widen the potential hardware base for low-end tablet makers.
saganus 13y ago
How come it won't run on Win7 but it will on Vista? I was under the impression that they had the same kernel and other things that made them very similar.
sentenza 13y ago
Depends on how you value your time. If you have time to spare, buy crappy old PCs with Vista license keys on Ebay, "harvest" the license keys, install a nice shiny Ubuntu and re-sell them as Computer (No Windows) on Ebay again. Might even be that you'll get a better price for a computer without windows than for one with vista.

bbarn 13y ago

Why is it there's an expectation for MS to support XP for so long, yet people have so little problem with Apple's OS policies? Entire PowerPC architecture abandoned between versions? My last mac was a great little 10 inch ultra-portable, which no more than 6 months after purchase was made obsolete by the Intel macs release. A release upon which, they not only stopped supporting the old OS, they stopped giving people any upgrade path at all for their equipment. Most machines that run XP can be made to run windows 7, albeit without all the bells and whistles. Those that aren't, are likely old enough that they'll probably need replacing soon enough anyway.

sentenza 13y ago
Because there are different kinds of "just works". There are those people that want to have a seamlessly integrated UI that just works, so they use Apple. There are those people that want their toolchain to just work, so they use Linux/BSD. And finally, there are those that want their computer to just work until it breaks and they have to buy a new one. Those people are "still on Windows".