4 ms·

Exactly; it wasn't tolerated, it made Iraq a pariah state, and it was quickly corrected. See anything like that happen with Russia's annexation of Crimea?

by anatoly 13y ago

talmand 13y ago
But that's not what you said, you stated it hasn't happened after WW2 until now. I took that to mean that no country had invaded another country for the purpose of annexation, at all, until now. I gave an example that it did in fact happen before now. It was corrected after the fact, seven months or so at that. What you are describing as a first with Crimea in 2014 had, in fact, happened before in a similar way. It's just with Crimea so far there's been much less bloodshed. There's a difference between saying such actions have not been tolerated since WW2 and such actions have not happened at all.
- anatoly 13y ago
  You're right, and thanks for correcting me. The not tolerating is the important thing though, I think you'll agree.
  - talmand 13y ago
    Yes, I agree.
sgift 13y ago
Okay, no more dancing around: What should he do? * Attack Russia? * Try to force them to submit with sanctions (current line)? * What else? Tell me. You know, I don't like this situation either. Not even a bit. But Russia is not Iraq, e.g. they have nuclear weapons. So - what is your solution for Mr. Obama so he won't be seen as a "weak president"? I would prefer solutions that don't involve a nuclear war. But that's just a preference.
- anatoly 13y ago
  Massive economic and trade sanctions. Get Russia out of the global financial system, prevent Russian oligarchs and state corps from having foreign holdings and investments. Halt all trade except that essential to the West (oil and gas to Europe). Speed up US export of energy to Europe, to get Europe off its dependency on Russian energy (this is happening already, but very slowly and uncertain to finish). A real economic and financial isolation would weaken Putin's regime immensely, and probably topple it quickly. One thing which is very different from the Cold War is that almost everything Russians consume is manufactured outside its borders (and if China doesn't play along, that would only reduce the pressure so much). There's real and very high economic cost to implementing such sanctions. Europe is only just now slowly recovering from its depression, and the US has plenty of problems with its "jobless recovery". Real sanctions might hurt a lot. But if you really, truly want to stop a new Reich in process of ramping up, and I do not use that word lightly, that might be the price you should be willing to pay. The above is the most extreme version, but even much weaker sanctions would be way better than the pathetic travel bans on a dozen-odd individuals.

Exactly; it wasn't tolerated, it made Iraq a pariah state, and it was quickly corrected. See anything like that happen with Russia's annexation of Crimea?

by anatoly 13y ago

Exactly; it wasn't tolerated, it made Iraq a pariah state, and it was quickly corrected. See anything like that happen with Russia's annexation of Crimea?

talmand 13y ago

But that's not what you said, you stated it hasn't happened after WW2 until now. I took that to mean that no country had invaded another country for the purpose of annexation, at all, until now. I gave an example that it did in fact happen before now. It was corrected after the fact, seven months or so at that. What you are describing as a first with Crimea in 2014 had, in fact, happened before in a similar way. It's just with Crimea so far there's been much less bloodshed. There's a difference between saying such actions have not been tolerated since WW2 and such actions have not happened at all.

anatoly 13y ago
You're right, and thanks for correcting me. The not tolerating is the important thing though, I think you'll agree.
- talmand 13y ago
  Yes, I agree.

sgift 13y ago

Okay, no more dancing around: What should he do? * Attack Russia? * Try to force them to submit with sanctions (current line)? * What else? Tell me. You know, I don't like this situation either. Not even a bit. But Russia is not Iraq, e.g. they have nuclear weapons. So - what is your solution for Mr. Obama so he won't be seen as a "weak president"? I would prefer solutions that don't involve a nuclear war. But that's just a preference.

anatoly 13y ago
Massive economic and trade sanctions. Get Russia out of the global financial system, prevent Russian oligarchs and state corps from having foreign holdings and investments. Halt all trade except that essential to the West (oil and gas to Europe). Speed up US export of energy to Europe, to get Europe off its dependency on Russian energy (this is happening already, but very slowly and uncertain to finish). A real economic and financial isolation would weaken Putin's regime immensely, and probably topple it quickly. One thing which is very different from the Cold War is that almost everything Russians consume is manufactured outside its borders (and if China doesn't play along, that would only reduce the pressure so much). There's real and very high economic cost to implementing such sanctions. Europe is only just now slowly recovering from its depression, and the US has plenty of problems with its "jobless recovery". Real sanctions might hurt a lot. But if you really, truly want to stop a new Reich in process of ramping up, and I do not use that word lightly, that might be the price you should be willing to pay. The above is the most extreme version, but even much weaker sanctions would be way better than the pathetic travel bans on a dozen-odd individuals.