5 ms·

Embrace the trolls

12 points by rriepe 17y ago

edw519 17y ago
There's a big difference between people with outlying opinions, who can add valuable feedback to a discussion and trolls, who add nothing. Experiments have repeatedly shown that when trolls are visible only to themselves, no one else can acknowledge their presence, so they just go away. Trolls are to be ignored. Outliers are to be embraced.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  HN has some of this built in it looks like. Plenty of times I'll see a comment by someone (usually clearly trolling) and the comment is labelled 'dead' seconds after posting. Here is a timely example: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=743103 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=743103 The comment at the bottom clearly is not a troll and yet it is labelled 'dead'. Outlying opinions are not appreciated on HN though, there was a 'worstcomments' link (admin only now it seems) that would show some (very) clear evidence of that. Which is a real pity.
  - edw519 17y ago
    Outlying opinions are not appreciated on HN though I would amend that to, "Outlying opinions are often subject to harsh treatment on HN." As an occasional outlier here, I used to wonder if I was losing my mind from time to time. How could I feel so strongly about something while almost every responder felt the opposite? I don't worry about it so much any more. Just say what you're thinking and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe we'll all learn something. Better to have that learning experience in this "harmless playground" first than with a boss or a customer.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      If they respond in writing you learn something if all you get is a bunch of unmotivated downvotes (and that happens quite often) it even leaves the old hands feeling like they got beaten up for something without knowing why. This is frustrating.
      - anamax 17y ago
        > all you get is a bunch of unmotivated downvotes (and that happens quite often) it even leaves the old hands feeling like they got beaten up for something without knowing why. "old hands" has nothing to do with it. It's basically a couple of people who claim that they're owed something by other folks on HN. > This is frustrating. In almost every other community, you get NO feedback and you're here complaining that you're not getting feedback in the form that you'd like. When someone gives you a gift that isn't exactly what you'd like, the gracious thing to do is to thank them.
        jacquesm 17y ago
        Thank you ;)
  - req2 17y ago
    I'm not sure what's up with that deaded comment. Most 'outlying opinions', when reasonably defended (e.g., with paragraphs and citations) seem to do pretty well. There's a clear 'winner', in that one set of responses will have scores that dwarf the dissent, but rarely do I see earnestly given, somewhat supported answers drowned below -1. (Example, from the first headline on /best that appeared politicky enough to incite vitriol: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=738357 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=738357) Iconoclastic comments are difficult to discern from foolish comments because all votes get pooled- the disagree vote and the 'not contributing' vote count the same (as they should). A potential method to prop up iconoclastic comments: when a post has received a large number of votes on both sides, display both counts, as opposed to the summed count. This gives a fighting chance to differentiate the 'derp derp derp' from the controversial, and helps reconcile the differences in how downvotes are used against arguments of differing qualities.
- rriepe 17y ago
  If you define a troll as someone who contributes nothing, then I guess I can't disagree with you. Todd's definition was a bit broader, though, and seemed to include those who expressed a negative opinion in a harsh way. Of course, the word has as at least as many definitions as there are online communities. The post could have easily been "Negative outliers are not trolls!"
wynand 17y ago
I disagree with the middle-way answer: it also doesn't require any thinking. In any forum, you should separate the emotional content from the factual content and only respond to the latter. This is quite different from taking the middle way. Though there are moderate trolls whose inflammatory postings contain useful factual content, I prefer forums where extreme trolling is dealt with harshly. Dissent is uncorrelated with rudeness (meaning that moderating extreme trolling won't drown out dissent) and no-one wants to spend their online time with the horribleness of uncontrolled trolling.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  The scary thing to me is how few trolls it takes to destroy an otherwise perfectly good community. 10 trolls can ruin the atmosphere for 1000 people easily.
  - fmendez 17y ago
    That's right, I`ll keep the 'ignore the troll' motto. Trolls add nothing to a discussion, constructive criticisms does.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
Pistos2 17y ago
How about this instead: I should remain humble, always open to the possibility that I could be wrong, or my work could need improvement; use reason, logic and critical thinking to assess feedback objectively.
- billswift 17y ago
  Humility is generally a virtue; but not in the face of arrogant stupidity, then it is pandering to idiots. There are claims, unfortunately fairly common on some political issues, where you can be sure comment you are responding to is egregiously wrong.
steveklabnik 17y ago
Trolls aren't always someone who responds in a negative and strong way, though. The "best" trolls are the ones that you're not even sure are trolling...

12 points by rriepe 17y ago

There's a big difference between people with outlying opinions, who can add valuable feedback to a discussion and trolls, who add nothing. Experiments have repeatedly shown that when trolls are visible only to themselves, no one else can acknowledge their presence, so they just go away. Trolls are to be ignored. Outliers are to be embraced.

jacquesm 17y ago
HN has some of this built in it looks like. Plenty of times I'll see a comment by someone (usually clearly trolling) and the comment is labelled 'dead' seconds after posting. Here is a timely example: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=743103 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=743103 The comment at the bottom clearly is not a troll and yet it is labelled 'dead'. Outlying opinions are not appreciated on HN though, there was a 'worstcomments' link (admin only now it seems) that would show some (very) clear evidence of that. Which is a real pity.
- edw519 17y ago
  Outlying opinions are not appreciated on HN though I would amend that to, "Outlying opinions are often subject to harsh treatment on HN." As an occasional outlier here, I used to wonder if I was losing my mind from time to time. How could I feel so strongly about something while almost every responder felt the opposite? I don't worry about it so much any more. Just say what you're thinking and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe we'll all learn something. Better to have that learning experience in this "harmless playground" first than with a boss or a customer.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    If they respond in writing you learn something if all you get is a bunch of unmotivated downvotes (and that happens quite often) it even leaves the old hands feeling like they got beaten up for something without knowing why. This is frustrating.
    - anamax 17y ago
      > all you get is a bunch of unmotivated downvotes (and that happens quite often) it even leaves the old hands feeling like they got beaten up for something without knowing why. "old hands" has nothing to do with it. It's basically a couple of people who claim that they're owed something by other folks on HN. > This is frustrating. In almost every other community, you get NO feedback and you're here complaining that you're not getting feedback in the form that you'd like. When someone gives you a gift that isn't exactly what you'd like, the gracious thing to do is to thank them.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        Thank you ;)
- req2 17y ago
  I'm not sure what's up with that deaded comment. Most 'outlying opinions', when reasonably defended (e.g., with paragraphs and citations) seem to do pretty well. There's a clear 'winner', in that one set of responses will have scores that dwarf the dissent, but rarely do I see earnestly given, somewhat supported answers drowned below -1. (Example, from the first headline on /best that appeared politicky enough to incite vitriol: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=738357 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=738357) Iconoclastic comments are difficult to discern from foolish comments because all votes get pooled- the disagree vote and the 'not contributing' vote count the same (as they should). A potential method to prop up iconoclastic comments: when a post has received a large number of votes on both sides, display both counts, as opposed to the summed count. This gives a fighting chance to differentiate the 'derp derp derp' from the controversial, and helps reconcile the differences in how downvotes are used against arguments of differing qualities.
rriepe 17y ago
If you define a troll as someone who contributes nothing, then I guess I can't disagree with you. Todd's definition was a bit broader, though, and seemed to include those who expressed a negative opinion in a harsh way. Of course, the word has as at least as many definitions as there are online communities. The post could have easily been "Negative outliers are not trolls!"

wynand 17y ago

I disagree with the middle-way answer: it also doesn't require any thinking. In any forum, you should separate the emotional content from the factual content and only respond to the latter. This is quite different from taking the middle way. Though there are moderate trolls whose inflammatory postings contain useful factual content, I prefer forums where extreme trolling is dealt with harshly. Dissent is uncorrelated with rudeness (meaning that moderating extreme trolling won't drown out dissent) and no-one wants to spend their online time with the horribleness of uncontrolled trolling.

jacquesm 17y ago
The scary thing to me is how few trolls it takes to destroy an otherwise perfectly good community. 10 trolls can ruin the atmosphere for 1000 people easily.
- fmendez 17y ago
  That's right, I`ll keep the 'ignore the troll' motto. Trolls add nothing to a discussion, constructive criticisms does.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

Pistos2 17y ago

How about this instead: I should remain humble, always open to the possibility that I could be wrong, or my work could need improvement; use reason, logic and critical thinking to assess feedback objectively.

billswift 17y ago
Humility is generally a virtue; but not in the face of arrogant stupidity, then it is pandering to idiots. There are claims, unfortunately fairly common on some political issues, where you can be sure comment you are responding to is egregiously wrong.

steveklabnik 17y ago

Trolls aren't always someone who responds in a negative and strong way, though. The "best" trolls are the ones that you're not even sure are trolling...