7 ms·

A few years ago I decided that I wanted more free time to work on side projects, travel, whatever, and I made what I thought was a rather reasonable offer to m

A few years ago I decided that I wanted more free time to work on side projects, travel, whatever, and I made what I thought was a rather reasonable offer to my current employer and a couple of suitors. I said "pay me 3/5ths of the salary you just offered me and I'll work 3 days a week". I also offered to keep this arrangement flexible so that I could work in stretches of varying lengths if needed. This did not go over well. People were actually offended by this proposition and it went nowhere. As a founder myself, I understand the desire to only hire people that will give you their full heart and soul. But, I'm also a practical person and if someone's skills are valuable to me, then they are very likely still valuable in part. In fact, when it comes to a product/engineering position, I think the employer would come out on top in such a scenario. They still get access to the person's brain and all of their knowledge and ideas. For someone that's being offered high compensation, their knowledge and ideas are probably a big part of the reason why.

embwbam 13y ago
I've tried this several times too and it has never worked well. I've been both employee and employer and I really wish people were more rational about this. Not only that but I think this is the key to fix the economy! Think about it: if people could accept salary cuts for less work we would have more jobs and could transition to an eventual post-scarcity economy smoothly. Creative workers don't output more than 25 quality hours a week anyway.
- ritchiea 13y ago
  I think for many people, most people even, this is not a rational decision. It's not about your time being worth a certain amount of value to the company and 4/5 or 3/5 of availability being worth proportionately less. Some people are offended by the idea of you wanting to structure your weeks differently in the first place & think of it purely as special treatment. They are obsessed with the idea of a five day work week and the traditional employer-employee relationship and accepting employment on non-standard terms would be giving away the employer's implicit power over the employee.
  - rhizome 13y ago
    To the degree that they're actually offended, I think it may be more reflexive that the employee would put an upper bound on the amount of work they would do in a week.
    - ritchiea 13y ago
      Then why go home or take off days at all?
      - rhizome 13y ago
        Because those are a couple of the things that government labor departments do tend to require.
- nanidin 13y ago
  We sort of have this system already in place - it's called part time work, and it's generally reserved for jobs that don't offer benefits like paid vacation time or health insurance. If I am willing to work 3/5 days a week for 3/5 of the pay, do I also only get 3/5 of the health care coverage and 3/5 of the vacation time of my 5/5 peers?
  - corin_ 13y ago
    3/5 of vacation time - yes, why not? That's standard for part-time people here in the UK. We obviously don't have the same healthcare situation as you, but surely it's just part of the negotiation? If 5 days a week is worth a $100k salary and $10k healthcare (don't ask me if that healthcare cost is 10x too high or 10x too low... but that doesn't matter) then 3 days a week is work $60k salary plus $6k healthcare. So offer that person $54k and healthcare. Or $66k and no healthcare. Simple enough, surely?
    - udfalkso 13y ago
      How about zero vacation time, and I keep the full healthcare? Or yeah, pay me 3/5 the healthcare, that's also reasonable. I'm sure this pice of the puzzle could be negotiated in each case.
- mattm 13y ago
  > Creative workers don't output more than 25 quality hours a week anyway. This is key. Most employers don't realise what a great deal this is. They are paying much less for probably the same amount of output. The person might even be more productive because they are more rested and can think better.
markfinger 13y ago
I've had fair success with similar arrangements (4 days instead of 5) and have found that I am just as productive in the 4 days as I am in the standard 5. The reduction in stress and the enjoyment that comes from pursuing your own interests has a tremendously positive impact on both your life and your work. Arranging part-time conditions can be a slightly bumpy process: as stated above, management is often initially offended that you don't want to dedicate your life to their company, but framing your request correctly can smooth over most bumps. When requesting a part-time arrangement I usually present it quite honestly: referring to a need for work/life balance, but also referring to the learning outcomes from pursuing challenging projects and the positive impacts they will have on my experience and capacity at work. At the end of the day most managers realise that they are faced with either agreeing or facing the inevitable lose of an employee, but the decision can be made easier for them if you highlight the positive outcomes for your performance at work. Incidentally, when I've described my part-time work schedule to friends and family, the universal response has been amazement and jealousy. The desire for a better work/life balance is such a common thing that I'm curious as to why so few people pursue better arrangements...?
- udfalkso 13y ago
  Good advice thanks. I think the biggest fear they have is that they think other people will get jealous or ask for the same offer and it will spiral out of control. So, perhaps this works best if you work remotely, or if you try it with a very small company.
eswat 13y ago
Yeah, this is a shame. I recently left my previous workplace due to a mix of burnout & boredom. I could tell this was brewing up inside me, so I asked to work 4 days a week. Unfortunately leadership didn’t like the idea; were afraid of others doing the same. So instead of biting the bullet they lost me.
vacri 13y ago
I wonder if it was in the way you phrased it? Part-time work is commonplace in non-skilled industries, and for consultants in skilled industries. It's not common but certainly present in skilled industries. I imagine it's highly dependent on the type of work you do; part-time work coding for a non-core project would probably be more acceptable than part-time work as a client account manager, for example.
Gustomaximus 13y ago
Having spent most of my working life in corporate world, when I first came across people working side projects my initial reaction was that they wouldn't be a good employee. My assumption was they are here for a pay check while their passion and energy goes into their personal projects. Also you felt you'd train them up and they would be off in 6 months. But working with a few of these guys I found they are usually the best employees. They tend to bring energy and innovation to everything they do and generally better than a corporate drone who really does just want to cash paychecks for the rest of their life. At least in my area of marketing where one needs to look for innovation. Also they didn't exit after 6 months as building side businesses takes time and don't all succeed. For me know I'd take side projects as a plus on a CV but I suspect many people will hold to that first instinct I felt.
interpol_p 13y ago
I did this a year ago and took four days a week for the relative pay cut. It was the best thing I've ever done related to work. My one day off is for my own projects, and it has also become special time I can spend with my wife (I was able to convince her to do the same thing at her job). I can't imagine going back to a full work week. All I can imagine doing is taking another day for my own projects when I can support it financially.
mattm 13y ago
Are you looking for someone 3 days a week? If so, feel free to contact me.

embwbam 13y ago

I've tried this several times too and it has never worked well. I've been both employee and employer and I really wish people were more rational about this. Not only that but I think this is the key to fix the economy! Think about it: if people could accept salary cuts for less work we would have more jobs and could transition to an eventual post-scarcity economy smoothly. Creative workers don't output more than 25 quality hours a week anyway.

ritchiea 13y ago
I think for many people, most people even, this is not a rational decision. It's not about your time being worth a certain amount of value to the company and 4/5 or 3/5 of availability being worth proportionately less. Some people are offended by the idea of you wanting to structure your weeks differently in the first place & think of it purely as special treatment. They are obsessed with the idea of a five day work week and the traditional employer-employee relationship and accepting employment on non-standard terms would be giving away the employer's implicit power over the employee.
- rhizome 13y ago
  To the degree that they're actually offended, I think it may be more reflexive that the employee would put an upper bound on the amount of work they would do in a week.
  - ritchiea 13y ago
    Then why go home or take off days at all?
    - rhizome 13y ago
      Because those are a couple of the things that government labor departments do tend to require.
nanidin 13y ago
We sort of have this system already in place - it's called part time work, and it's generally reserved for jobs that don't offer benefits like paid vacation time or health insurance. If I am willing to work 3/5 days a week for 3/5 of the pay, do I also only get 3/5 of the health care coverage and 3/5 of the vacation time of my 5/5 peers?
- corin_ 13y ago
  3/5 of vacation time - yes, why not? That's standard for part-time people here in the UK. We obviously don't have the same healthcare situation as you, but surely it's just part of the negotiation? If 5 days a week is worth a $100k salary and $10k healthcare (don't ask me if that healthcare cost is 10x too high or 10x too low... but that doesn't matter) then 3 days a week is work $60k salary plus $6k healthcare. So offer that person $54k and healthcare. Or $66k and no healthcare. Simple enough, surely?
  - udfalkso 13y ago
    How about zero vacation time, and I keep the full healthcare? Or yeah, pay me 3/5 the healthcare, that's also reasonable. I'm sure this pice of the puzzle could be negotiated in each case.
mattm 13y ago
> Creative workers don't output more than 25 quality hours a week anyway. This is key. Most employers don't realise what a great deal this is. They are paying much less for probably the same amount of output. The person might even be more productive because they are more rested and can think better.

markfinger 13y ago

I've had fair success with similar arrangements (4 days instead of 5) and have found that I am just as productive in the 4 days as I am in the standard 5. The reduction in stress and the enjoyment that comes from pursuing your own interests has a tremendously positive impact on both your life and your work. Arranging part-time conditions can be a slightly bumpy process: as stated above, management is often initially offended that you don't want to dedicate your life to their company, but framing your request correctly can smooth over most bumps. When requesting a part-time arrangement I usually present it quite honestly: referring to a need for work/life balance, but also referring to the learning outcomes from pursuing challenging projects and the positive impacts they will have on my experience and capacity at work. At the end of the day most managers realise that they are faced with either agreeing or facing the inevitable lose of an employee, but the decision can be made easier for them if you highlight the positive outcomes for your performance at work. Incidentally, when I've described my part-time work schedule to friends and family, the universal response has been amazement and jealousy. The desire for a better work/life balance is such a common thing that I'm curious as to why so few people pursue better arrangements...?

udfalkso 13y ago
Good advice thanks. I think the biggest fear they have is that they think other people will get jealous or ask for the same offer and it will spiral out of control. So, perhaps this works best if you work remotely, or if you try it with a very small company.

eswat 13y ago

Yeah, this is a shame. I recently left my previous workplace due to a mix of burnout & boredom. I could tell this was brewing up inside me, so I asked to work 4 days a week. Unfortunately leadership didn’t like the idea; were afraid of others doing the same. So instead of biting the bullet they lost me.

vacri 13y ago

I wonder if it was in the way you phrased it? Part-time work is commonplace in non-skilled industries, and for consultants in skilled industries. It's not common but certainly present in skilled industries. I imagine it's highly dependent on the type of work you do; part-time work coding for a non-core project would probably be more acceptable than part-time work as a client account manager, for example.

Gustomaximus 13y ago

Having spent most of my working life in corporate world, when I first came across people working side projects my initial reaction was that they wouldn't be a good employee. My assumption was they are here for a pay check while their passion and energy goes into their personal projects. Also you felt you'd train them up and they would be off in 6 months. But working with a few of these guys I found they are usually the best employees. They tend to bring energy and innovation to everything they do and generally better than a corporate drone who really does just want to cash paychecks for the rest of their life. At least in my area of marketing where one needs to look for innovation. Also they didn't exit after 6 months as building side businesses takes time and don't all succeed. For me know I'd take side projects as a plus on a CV but I suspect many people will hold to that first instinct I felt.

interpol_p 13y ago

I did this a year ago and took four days a week for the relative pay cut. It was the best thing I've ever done related to work. My one day off is for my own projects, and it has also become special time I can spend with my wife (I was able to convince her to do the same thing at her job). I can't imagine going back to a full work week. All I can imagine doing is taking another day for my own projects when I can support it financially.

mattm 13y ago

Are you looking for someone 3 days a week? If so, feel free to contact me.