4 ms·

Not at all. Watch someone get electrocuted through shitty test equipment or a poor earth and you'll get the idea. Doesn't matter if it's an Arduino connected t

by bananas 13y ago

Not at all. Watch someone get electrocuted through shitty test equipment or a poor earth and you'll get the idea. Doesn't matter if it's an Arduino connected to a PC with an earth fault or a $30000 scope. People just don't GET electrical safety and it's a really big problem. It's nothing to do with grandeur - it's understanding the whole problem.

bronson 13y ago
Uh huh. I'm an EE and I'm calling your BS. It's fine for people to use PCs (and lamps and toasters and blenders) even though they might have earth faults. It's fine for people to charge their phones even though there's a nonzero chance they'll use a counterfeit charger. And it's perfectly fine for people to probe 5V circuits using a $15.00 multimeter. If you're really claiming that everyone needs a $400 Fluke before they can probe the circuit they just soldered together then I can only guess that you're really hurting for work?
- Retric 13y ago
  And I call BS on you. People do get electrocuted when dealing with toasters and other home electronics on a somewhat regular basis. "The Consumer Products Safety Commission estimates that on average 15 people are electrocuted in the U.S. annually due to faulty or misused home electrical appliances, including toasters."
  - bronson 13y ago
    So you don't use toasters?
    - Retric 13y ago
      No, but I do recognize they can be dangerous and so take reasonable precautions like unplugging them before trying to get toast out with a butter knife etc. 120v rarely kills people, but saying that does not mean it's 'safe'. https://xkcd.com/795/ https://xkcd.com/795/
      - jessaustin 13y ago
        You've totally missed the point. Yes toasters can kill people, but statistically very few deaths are by toaster. That's why as a society we've decided the useful convenience of toasters outweighs their inherent dangers. Similarly, we've decided that really cheap meters are beneficial enough to outweigh the slight possibility that someone might measure a too-high voltage while using the meter as an eyeshield or baby toy or something.
        Retric 13y ago
        Safety is far from a binary thing. People used to build extremely unsafe toasters that changed over time in large part to government rules and regulations. We accept cars and trucks killing 30,000+ people in the US every year, but even that number is much smaller than it could if we let company's sell cars like they where designed in the 1950's or let people drive like they did back then. We accept that cheap electronics are going to be somewhat less safe, but we don't accept people selling cheap electronics leaching off the reputations of high-quality brands. Not just because it can kill people but it also creates bad incentives where there is little point in creating quality if nobody can tell the difference. And no they did not just randomly chose to have a yellow back it's a deliberate imitation of a quality product which could easily cause confusion in the marketplace and kill someone.
        jessaustin 13y ago
        This subthread is about "safety", not trademarks. IANAIPL, and I have no opinion about what color the various cheap-ass meters I have used should be. If someone is too confused to contrast the letters comprising "Fluke" from those comprising "Mastech" or whatever, that someone is too confused to be metering circuits. For my edification, can you point out one example of a human being who was killed while using a cheap meter, who would have been unharmed if using a precious Fluke?
        jessaustin 13y ago
        I'd still like to be edified. How about one example of a human being who was injured in any way while using a cheap meter, who would have been unharmed if using a precious Fluke?
- chc 13y ago
  I think bananas' point is that the Fluke brand means something important (even if a $15 multimeter can do the job, a Fluke is better), so it is worthwhile to protect that brand for people who do care about this stuff.
  - bronson 13y ago
    You're right. If he had said that then I would agree (as long as the brand protection isn't too sweeping... I remember a story about Fluke trying to claim the big-knob-on-the-front-of-a-handheld form factor, dunno how true it was). For people who care, this is why Flukes (and Agilents and good DMMs) are worth the money: http://www.eevblog.com/2012/10/19/eevblog-373-multimeter-input-protection-tutorial/ http://www.eevblog.com/2012/10/19/eevblog-373-multimeter-inp... But not everybody needs that. If kids want to to make a battery powered 555 drive an LED, do they need to wait until their parents can afford a Fluke? Or risk death? That seems to be what bananas is saying.
    - bananas 13y ago
      Sorry to correct myself that's not what I'm saying. To break it down: 1. Fluke have a right to protect their brand identity, which since 1988 approximately involved a yellow rubber case for their portable DMMs 2. A $15 multimeter is a pile of crap whatever you do and isn't suitable for anything other than battery powered circuitry as you state. I'd even question its value for that. It's useful for approximating but not measuring. It shouldn't be let near anything directly or indirectly mains connected even if it has a 240V AC range on the dial regardless though. 3. A $50-100 multimeter is however a safer investment. Even a bottom to mid-range Amprobe or Ex-tech will do the job fine and not put you at risk. I can't afford three Fluke meters but I will use the Fluke for anything where risk is likely or I need accurate measurements. If I need to take more than one simultaneous measurement I will delegate the less critical ones to a couple of $80 Amprobe meters I use. Perhaps a more pertinent question, is: are your kids worth $15 or $50 for safety equipment?

by bananas 13y ago

bronson 13y ago

Uh huh. I'm an EE and I'm calling your BS. It's fine for people to use PCs (and lamps and toasters and blenders) even though they might have earth faults. It's fine for people to charge their phones even though there's a nonzero chance they'll use a counterfeit charger. And it's perfectly fine for people to probe 5V circuits using a $15.00 multimeter. If you're really claiming that everyone needs a $400 Fluke before they can probe the circuit they just soldered together then I can only guess that you're really hurting for work?

Retric 13y ago
And I call BS on you. People do get electrocuted when dealing with toasters and other home electronics on a somewhat regular basis. "The Consumer Products Safety Commission estimates that on average 15 people are electrocuted in the U.S. annually due to faulty or misused home electrical appliances, including toasters."
- bronson 13y ago
  So you don't use toasters?
  - Retric 13y ago
    No, but I do recognize they can be dangerous and so take reasonable precautions like unplugging them before trying to get toast out with a butter knife etc. 120v rarely kills people, but saying that does not mean it's 'safe'. https://xkcd.com/795/ https://xkcd.com/795/
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      You've totally missed the point. Yes toasters can kill people, but statistically very few deaths are by toaster. That's why as a society we've decided the useful convenience of toasters outweighs their inherent dangers. Similarly, we've decided that really cheap meters are beneficial enough to outweigh the slight possibility that someone might measure a too-high voltage while using the meter as an eyeshield or baby toy or something.
      - Retric 13y ago
        Safety is far from a binary thing. People used to build extremely unsafe toasters that changed over time in large part to government rules and regulations. We accept cars and trucks killing 30,000+ people in the US every year, but even that number is much smaller than it could if we let company's sell cars like they where designed in the 1950's or let people drive like they did back then. We accept that cheap electronics are going to be somewhat less safe, but we don't accept people selling cheap electronics leaching off the reputations of high-quality brands. Not just because it can kill people but it also creates bad incentives where there is little point in creating quality if nobody can tell the difference. And no they did not just randomly chose to have a yellow back it's a deliberate imitation of a quality product which could easily cause confusion in the marketplace and kill someone.
        jessaustin 13y ago
        This subthread is about "safety", not trademarks. IANAIPL, and I have no opinion about what color the various cheap-ass meters I have used should be. If someone is too confused to contrast the letters comprising "Fluke" from those comprising "Mastech" or whatever, that someone is too confused to be metering circuits. For my edification, can you point out one example of a human being who was killed while using a cheap meter, who would have been unharmed if using a precious Fluke?
        jessaustin 13y ago
        I'd still like to be edified. How about one example of a human being who was injured in any way while using a cheap meter, who would have been unharmed if using a precious Fluke?
chc 13y ago
I think bananas' point is that the Fluke brand means something important (even if a $15 multimeter can do the job, a Fluke is better), so it is worthwhile to protect that brand for people who do care about this stuff.
- bronson 13y ago
  You're right. If he had said that then I would agree (as long as the brand protection isn't too sweeping... I remember a story about Fluke trying to claim the big-knob-on-the-front-of-a-handheld form factor, dunno how true it was). For people who care, this is why Flukes (and Agilents and good DMMs) are worth the money: http://www.eevblog.com/2012/10/19/eevblog-373-multimeter-input-protection-tutorial/ http://www.eevblog.com/2012/10/19/eevblog-373-multimeter-inp... But not everybody needs that. If kids want to to make a battery powered 555 drive an LED, do they need to wait until their parents can afford a Fluke? Or risk death? That seems to be what bananas is saying.
  - bananas 13y ago
    Sorry to correct myself that's not what I'm saying. To break it down: 1. Fluke have a right to protect their brand identity, which since 1988 approximately involved a yellow rubber case for their portable DMMs 2. A $15 multimeter is a pile of crap whatever you do and isn't suitable for anything other than battery powered circuitry as you state. I'd even question its value for that. It's useful for approximating but not measuring. It shouldn't be let near anything directly or indirectly mains connected even if it has a 240V AC range on the dial regardless though. 3. A $50-100 multimeter is however a safer investment. Even a bottom to mid-range Amprobe or Ex-tech will do the job fine and not put you at risk. I can't afford three Fluke meters but I will use the Fluke for anything where risk is likely or I need accurate measurements. If I need to take more than one simultaneous measurement I will delegate the less critical ones to a couple of $80 Amprobe meters I use. Perhaps a more pertinent question, is: are your kids worth $15 or $50 for safety equipment?