4 ms·

Never, ever, ever pin yourself down with a number. This weakens your ability to negotiate tremendously. Not giving a number forces the other side to present w

by steven2012 13y ago

Never, ever, ever pin yourself down with a number. This weakens your ability to negotiate tremendously. Not giving a number forces the other side to present what they believe to be a good offer, as opposed to what you already mentioned as a desired number, which might be a lot lower than what they were thinking of. I always say "I'm fine with a market-rate salary. I'm open to a salary cut from my current salary if the position has a great opportunity."

kevinastone 13y ago
This routinely great advise (never make the first move!) just doesn't work in practice. Those making the hiring decisions are going to want to identify a range of possible salaries before continuing the recruiting process. Otherwise, if the candidate later demands an extremely high price, we both wasted a lot of time and resources. Here's what I recommend and have used successfully: A) Offer a range B) Offer your last salary (with some expectation of a bump) The key is that this gets you in the door for consideration without being committal. Once the employer begins to really sell themselves on you, then you have the leverage. Other offers can justify increasing your ask and now they're more hooked on you as the right candidate.
- steven2012 13y ago
  I've always used this very common tactic successfully in my almost 20 years living in Silicon Valley. If they take offense to this, then they're probably not a good employer. The thing is, what you believe is a fair rate could be vastly below market rate. As a salaried employee, you don't have any real insight into what they are paying people. For example, I've heard from a friend at Apple $170,000/yr + 250k in RSUs over 4 years. He said a co-worker accepted a job at Google for 180k + 400k in RSUs over 4 years. I would never have known these, and if I gave what I believed to be a fair rate, I might have underbid myself.
  - kevinastone 13y ago
    If your answer to "what salary are you expecting?" is: "I'm fine with a market-rate salary", I'll just ask you what you think market-rate is for your position. Now, usually, you can just say something like: "market-rate will vary with the type of position, role and responsibilities". The goal of the recruiter is just to get a confirmation that your expectations are in within the range permitted for the position. If you suggest that others at Apple or Google are making $X and $Y for the same role, that helps the recruiter identify how you're evaluating a market-rate. It's up to you to not price yourself below what the market may pay for your services. That's the fallacy of never making the first offer. This expectation that you could be undercutting yourself and your negotiation partner would have offered more. In reality, this almost never happens, especially if the expecatation that the terms are negotiable. The company will just offer the least favorable terms first expectating a counter if they're unsuitable.
    - steven2012 13y ago
      I will admit to not knowing how things are done outside of Silicon Valley, so if that's the norm outside then I gladly defer to you. But in Silicon Valley I've never been pressed to give a salary. So in today's market, if I were talking to you as a prospective employee and you pressed me to give you a salary without you telling me how much you want to pay for the salary, I would politely decline to continue the interview process. I don't need a job that badly (yet). It would feel to shady to me to have the prospective employer force me to give a salary expectation before they give me an offer. They know what their budget is, and if we're in the negotiation process, they know if I'm worth whatever their best offer is. If you are a recruiter, and this is the initial phases of the conversation, and you press me on salary expectations, then I most assuredly will not continue the conversation. I don't think it's appropriate for either side to discuss salary expectations at that point. If I'm desperate for employment, then I'm sure my feelings would change on this, but so far (knock on wood) this hasn't been an issue.
      - kevinastone 13y ago
        Yeah, fair point. If by Silicon Valley, you mean the large tech companies (like Google, Apple, etc), you're correct that they won't ask your salary expectations since they have their own internal process for determining compensation for a given candidate. (They also generally think they can outbid anyone else). I have been working with smaller startups (down here in LA, but I've seen the same behavior up north), who tend to filter candidates based on expected salary due to limited resources and hiring for an exact role. (We tend to mask our cheapness by using phrases like "hungry" or "passionate").
randomdata 13y ago
Given that, as an employee, you are the seller in the relationship, that would be like Walmart not posting prices on any items and making you suggest what it is worth at the checkout. It is not usually how business is done. About the only exception that I can think of is in sales of commodities, where the buyer typically does make the offer. I'm not sure you want to treat yourself and career as a commodity, do you? Wouldn't it be better to state your price alongside your sales material? If you're not in the ballpark, then you can even save yourself wasting time talking with the potential client further.
- Terr_ 13y ago
  > Given that, as an employee, you are the seller in the relationship Very serious question: Is that actually true, and why do you believe it? Is it "I'm not the one with hard cash, therefore I am obligated to negotiate like a big box retailer"? Don't be fooled into adopting an unhelpful paradigm or power-relationship just because what you are bartering is harder to quanitfy. In many ways your employer is much more like Walmart than you will can be. For example, they are a larger entity that can amortize risks over lots of individual interactions. Also. they invest significantly in accounting, data collection, and have better knowledge of what rate they can accept for a transaction. Walk into a negotiation thinking that you "owe" the other guy an advantage, and you've already given it to them.
  - randomdata 13y ago
    > why do you believe it? The opposite of a seller is a buyer. Do you think an employee is better described as being a buyer? > In many ways your employer is much more like Walmart than you will can be. This is the commodity situation I mentioned. Try being a farmer for a while and see what it is like selling your crops. You'll then know exactly what I'm talking about. If you are just another person that is easily replaceable by any other person, then you are, in fact, a commodity. However, I don't think that is what you want to strive for in your career. Setting yourself apart is how you make more than commodity wages. And, in that case, only you know how much your time is worth since there is nobody, or few, to even compare you with. If you don't even know how much your time is worth, how is anyone else supposed to know? If you do know, why hide it? You are (hopefully) the desirable smartphone that boasts to everyone how expensive it is, not the undesirable flip phone that has to hide its true cost in fine print in hopes someone might be foolish enough to buy it.

kevinastone 13y ago

This routinely great advise (never make the first move!) just doesn't work in practice. Those making the hiring decisions are going to want to identify a range of possible salaries before continuing the recruiting process. Otherwise, if the candidate later demands an extremely high price, we both wasted a lot of time and resources. Here's what I recommend and have used successfully: A) Offer a range B) Offer your last salary (with some expectation of a bump) The key is that this gets you in the door for consideration without being committal. Once the employer begins to really sell themselves on you, then you have the leverage. Other offers can justify increasing your ask and now they're more hooked on you as the right candidate.

steven2012 13y ago
I've always used this very common tactic successfully in my almost 20 years living in Silicon Valley. If they take offense to this, then they're probably not a good employer. The thing is, what you believe is a fair rate could be vastly below market rate. As a salaried employee, you don't have any real insight into what they are paying people. For example, I've heard from a friend at Apple $170,000/yr + 250k in RSUs over 4 years. He said a co-worker accepted a job at Google for 180k + 400k in RSUs over 4 years. I would never have known these, and if I gave what I believed to be a fair rate, I might have underbid myself.
- kevinastone 13y ago
  If your answer to "what salary are you expecting?" is: "I'm fine with a market-rate salary", I'll just ask you what you think market-rate is for your position. Now, usually, you can just say something like: "market-rate will vary with the type of position, role and responsibilities". The goal of the recruiter is just to get a confirmation that your expectations are in within the range permitted for the position. If you suggest that others at Apple or Google are making $X and $Y for the same role, that helps the recruiter identify how you're evaluating a market-rate. It's up to you to not price yourself below what the market may pay for your services. That's the fallacy of never making the first offer. This expectation that you could be undercutting yourself and your negotiation partner would have offered more. In reality, this almost never happens, especially if the expecatation that the terms are negotiable. The company will just offer the least favorable terms first expectating a counter if they're unsuitable.
  - steven2012 13y ago
    I will admit to not knowing how things are done outside of Silicon Valley, so if that's the norm outside then I gladly defer to you. But in Silicon Valley I've never been pressed to give a salary. So in today's market, if I were talking to you as a prospective employee and you pressed me to give you a salary without you telling me how much you want to pay for the salary, I would politely decline to continue the interview process. I don't need a job that badly (yet). It would feel to shady to me to have the prospective employer force me to give a salary expectation before they give me an offer. They know what their budget is, and if we're in the negotiation process, they know if I'm worth whatever their best offer is. If you are a recruiter, and this is the initial phases of the conversation, and you press me on salary expectations, then I most assuredly will not continue the conversation. I don't think it's appropriate for either side to discuss salary expectations at that point. If I'm desperate for employment, then I'm sure my feelings would change on this, but so far (knock on wood) this hasn't been an issue.
    - kevinastone 13y ago
      Yeah, fair point. If by Silicon Valley, you mean the large tech companies (like Google, Apple, etc), you're correct that they won't ask your salary expectations since they have their own internal process for determining compensation for a given candidate. (They also generally think they can outbid anyone else). I have been working with smaller startups (down here in LA, but I've seen the same behavior up north), who tend to filter candidates based on expected salary due to limited resources and hiring for an exact role. (We tend to mask our cheapness by using phrases like "hungry" or "passionate").

randomdata 13y ago

Given that, as an employee, you are the seller in the relationship, that would be like Walmart not posting prices on any items and making you suggest what it is worth at the checkout. It is not usually how business is done. About the only exception that I can think of is in sales of commodities, where the buyer typically does make the offer. I'm not sure you want to treat yourself and career as a commodity, do you? Wouldn't it be better to state your price alongside your sales material? If you're not in the ballpark, then you can even save yourself wasting time talking with the potential client further.

Terr_ 13y ago
> Given that, as an employee, you are the seller in the relationship Very serious question: Is that actually true, and why do you believe it? Is it "I'm not the one with hard cash, therefore I am obligated to negotiate like a big box retailer"? Don't be fooled into adopting an unhelpful paradigm or power-relationship just because what you are bartering is harder to quanitfy. In many ways your employer is much more like Walmart than you will can be. For example, they are a larger entity that can amortize risks over lots of individual interactions. Also. they invest significantly in accounting, data collection, and have better knowledge of what rate they can accept for a transaction. Walk into a negotiation thinking that you "owe" the other guy an advantage, and you've already given it to them.
- randomdata 13y ago
  > why do you believe it? The opposite of a seller is a buyer. Do you think an employee is better described as being a buyer? > In many ways your employer is much more like Walmart than you will can be. This is the commodity situation I mentioned. Try being a farmer for a while and see what it is like selling your crops. You'll then know exactly what I'm talking about. If you are just another person that is easily replaceable by any other person, then you are, in fact, a commodity. However, I don't think that is what you want to strive for in your career. Setting yourself apart is how you make more than commodity wages. And, in that case, only you know how much your time is worth since there is nobody, or few, to even compare you with. If you don't even know how much your time is worth, how is anyone else supposed to know? If you do know, why hide it? You are (hopefully) the desirable smartphone that boasts to everyone how expensive it is, not the undesirable flip phone that has to hide its true cost in fine print in hopes someone might be foolish enough to buy it.