6 ms·

I don't really care about going any faster. 8 hours to get from Europe to North America is fine with me. The problem I find flying is comfort. Since the 60's it

I don't really care about going any faster. 8 hours to get from Europe to North America is fine with me. The problem I find flying is comfort. Since the 60's it's got a lot worse. It seems every year they cram the seats closer together and make the entire experience worse. As a tall - but not that tall - person (6ft1") flying can literally be painful if I don't get an isle seat. Obviously the issue is people want to fly cheaply. A good solution might be to introduce a new 'mid-tier' class between economy and business. I would happily pay an extra 10-20% for an extra bit of space.

wicknicks 13y ago
The problem is not to to just get from point A to B, but to have a good experience doing it. Air travel is getting worse every year. Starting from the airport checks to the long immigration lines (when traveling internationally) and super expensive fares for those "cuddly" seats, it can make holidays more exhausting than work. And if you live an hour from the airport, well good luck! My idea of a grand future is when we can travel across the globe in less than hour, and pay less than $50 doing it.
bestdayever 13y ago
At 6'3" the isle seat scares me to. when that cart comes rumbling down the isle, if I'm not on my game I'm looking at a very serious injury. I think the goal though is to make flying cheaper and more profitable and I can't really blame the airlines for that.
vvvv 13y ago
That's premium economy, although actual value for extra money depends on an airline. In fact, the whole experience depends massively on the airline of your choice, with US airlines, in my opinion, being well towards the bottom of the pile.
aidos 13y ago
And presumably they wouldn't need to charge anything like that to make it more comfortable, even taking out a few rows would make a big difference. Having done a couple of 12 hour stretches while holding a small child in my lap, I'd definitely agree with you on making it more comfortable :)
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  This gets tried every couple of years. Trouble is, almost everybody buys the cheapest ticket. ANd taking rows out cuts directly into the bottom line -6 or 12 fewer passengers cuts profit instantly. So it never lasts. You can't fill up a plane this way, and that's the only thing that matters.
  - ronaldx 13y ago
    The last intercontinental flight I took, a weighty 6ft6 guy had bought the cheapest seat and expected to get an automatic upgrade on the plane. It's not an exaggeration to say that he literally didn't fit into his seat. Indeed, he got the upgrade: the premium economy section was otherwise empty. Otherwise, the situation would have been beyond unpleasant for everyone around him. The cheapest seats are so small that they need to have at least a few with more space for this type of case. If they can sell them to comfort-sensitive people for a higher price, even better.
  - bentcorner 13y ago
    They need to implement two things: 1.) Flexible seating in aircraft so that each seat can be adjusted forward/backwards between flights by flight attendants. Doing this by seat might be awkward for people sitting next to each other, so maybe do it by row. 2.) Bidding-style airline tickets. How much would you pay for the minimum amount of room? How much would you pay to get the maximum amount of room? How much would you pay to be allowed to recline the seat? How much would you pay to prevent the guy in front of you from reclining the seat? These sound like terrible ideas, but in the airline spirit of dynamic pricing I think it fits.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    > "Trouble is, almost everybody buys the cheapest ticket." Ding ding ding! That's the trouble: we've gotten people in a state where they're sensitive to the very last dollar in price. People will actually pick the worse ticket just to save $5. I used to work at an online retailer where part of our job was to market environmentally-friendly, recyclable, easy-to-open (read: no clamshell, no thick plastic) packaging to customers. We did some research into the price premium people are willing to pay for the lack of hassle. The answer was close to zero. This is a classic race to the bottom, I have no ideas on how to fix it.
rwissmann 13y ago
Good point. Airlines seem to have caught on to this with ideas such as extra legroom and premium economy seats.
Breefield 13y ago
Exit rows usually offer this for $50.
ronaldx 13y ago
Going faster would mean less time sat in discomfort. It's OK (for me) to sit in the cheapest seats of a plane for 2-3 hours, but for 6-8 hours is very tough.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  I guess it depends how far you're flying and how much quicker they could make it. 2 hours is my limit before the discomfort starts to get irritating. Usually by the last 2-3 hours of an 8 hour flight I'm counting down the seconds until I can get off.
arethuza 13y ago
British Airways World Traveller Plus is pretty good - much better than BA economy and without the silly cost of real business class: http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/travel-classes/premium-economy/world-traveller-plus http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/travel-class... [Edit: I did a check on a random flight from LHR <-> SFO and Premium economy was about twice economy and about half of business.]
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  Thanks that's the sort of thing I'm looking for although I'd rather they reduced the price slightly and just offered the extra leg room. I don't really care about nicer meals or attentive service.
blackaspen 13y ago
I'll take the faster jet and be enjoying a drink in London before you even get your first "meal service". If you only care about comfort, why don't you take a boat? A transoceanic trip for about $3k will get you an inside room and take ~12 days.
- vehementi 13y ago
  Are you sure you're replying to the right thread / post? Nobody said anything about only caring about comfort.
  - ForHackernews 13y ago
    > I don't really care about going any faster > The problem I find flying is comfort.
    - micampe 13y ago
      "I don't care about going faster" != "I'm cool with going 36x slower"
    - vehementi 13y ago
      You only quoted text, did you mean to follow up with an edit to explain why that is relevant? OP said planes are currently fast enough and they want more comfort rather than more speed, not that comfort is the only priority and the planes can go any speed whatsoever. Could you explain your interpretation?
      - ForHackernews 13y ago
        > A wife asks her husband, a computer programmer; "Could you please go to the store for me and buy one carton of milk, and if they have eggs, get 6!" > A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk. > The wife asks him, "Why the hell did you buy 6 cartons of milk?" > He replied, "They had eggs."
AndrewKemendo 13y ago
Well that is what First Class is for. Oh you wanted it to be the same price? It has only gotten worse since the 60's because now YOU and I can afford to fly. Back in the "golden age" people flew maybe once a year and saved in order to do so. Even then it was mostly well to do people flying - now it may as well be the bus. The relative price per ticket now compared to the 60's is nickles. I flew on spirit airlines a few months ago round trip from DCA to DFW for $128. That's INSANE low. In 1960 dollars that would have been ~$16. You weren't flying anywhere for $16 in the 1960s. People wanted to fly, so the airlines accommodated that by smashing us together and giving us low fares - making themselves not really that rich in the process.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >> "Well that is what First Class is for. Oh you wanted it to be the same price?" First class is hugely more expensive than economy. I'm proposing a new middle tier. I just did a search for a Belfast > New York flight next month. Economy: £532 Business: £2,636 First class: £6,809 If they added a section with increased space for passengers (no champagne or other extras) and charged £800-1000 for it I'd pay and I'm not someone with money to throw around - that's how uncomfortable I find flying. All I'm asking for is an extra couple feet spacing between seats.
  - oesmith 13y ago
    Premium economy? I usually fly between LHR and SFO on BA premium economy. It's usually sub-£1000. Compared to economy, the seats are wider with more leg room and the meals are better. It's a pity they still fly creaking old 747s on that route though. One time went to SFO through LAX where the first leg was on an A380 and that completely spoiled 747s for me. Unfortunately, the A380 doesn't make up for the horrors of connecting onto an AA domestic flight at LAX, so I can't do that all the time now...
  - nextw33k 13y ago
    I would imagine that you've identified the problem, the price of the ticket is more related to the extra space you take up and the lost revenue they get. The cost of a few glasses of champagne and slightly better food is a tiny fraction of the cost of flying. First class is that price because they can, people want to differentiate themselves by paying more, not because they get a vastly better experience.
Al-Khwarizmi 13y ago
I am 1.96 m tall (6'5") and I would also pay 10-20% more for some leg room when I pay for the tickets myself. But when I fly for work purposes (i.e. the vast majority of the time), this is not an option, regulations say I can only fly in economy class. I suppose many people is in the same situation. I don't really think having enough space to actually fit in the seat should be considered a premium. It should be a right.
bane 13y ago
I fly to Europe and Asia at least once a year, and somewhere within North America at least once a year. I've flown both coach and business class on all of these. Consistently, the US<->Asia flights are incomparably better. If I could pay a little more and get a Korean Air flight to Paris, I'd do it. Coach on various Asian airlines is about as good as some European and North American airline's business class. Seat comfort, level of service, aircraft cleanliness, etc. I'll add that my back is ready to go out on even a D.C. to Denver leg on United, and I've almost never flown domestically and not gotten some kind of upper respiratory infection as a final parting gift. Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, British Air, United International to Europe is a similar experience, just longer and more horrible. U.S. East Coast to Seoul nonstop is one of the longest routes in current commercial service, and I've hopped off the plane refreshed and ready to go do things every time. The standard kit in coach even includes an eyemask to help you sleep and the flight attendants bring around hot towels every so often so you can wipe down your hands and face. Bathrooms are well stocked with toothbrushes and toothpaste and getting water or snacks outside of regular meal time has never been a problem. On some flights they'll even give you cans of spray water to spritz on your face to cool off and refresh yourself. Food is consistently "decent". And paradoxically, seats are wider, better cushioned and more comfortable than the business class seats I've flown on to Europe on flights half as long. I wish there was some way to bring this level of service to Western airlines, but to be honest, I count a domestic flight on United a success if all the lavatories are in service and don't overflow into the aisle.
- jmspring 13y ago
  Surprisingly, my last SFO -> Europe flight, the United plane was more comfortable than the Lufthansa return (Economy Plus, vs. plain Economy for LH -- but LH seats are very austere/lack padding it seems).
larsberg 13y ago
> A good solution might be to introduce a new 'mid-tier' class between economy and business. I would happily pay an extra 10-20% for an extra bit of space. United's Economy Plus is huge for me for this reason. An extra 3-6" of legroom (depends on the plane and the flight leg) makes a big difference at that height. It doesn't help at all with seat width though, unfortunately.
true_religion 13y ago
Faster is a big deal for me. Most of my flights are US -> Asia or US -> Africa. Going to Africa is a 25hr + flight due to the need to segue through Europe. Going back is worse since the segue is usually through the Middle East. Going to Asia is a painful crossing over the Pacific with a brief stopover in Hawaii to make it at least 18hrs.

wicknicks 13y ago

The problem is not to to just get from point A to B, but to have a good experience doing it. Air travel is getting worse every year. Starting from the airport checks to the long immigration lines (when traveling internationally) and super expensive fares for those "cuddly" seats, it can make holidays more exhausting than work. And if you live an hour from the airport, well good luck! My idea of a grand future is when we can travel across the globe in less than hour, and pay less than $50 doing it.

bestdayever 13y ago

At 6'3" the isle seat scares me to. when that cart comes rumbling down the isle, if I'm not on my game I'm looking at a very serious injury. I think the goal though is to make flying cheaper and more profitable and I can't really blame the airlines for that.

vvvv 13y ago

That's premium economy, although actual value for extra money depends on an airline. In fact, the whole experience depends massively on the airline of your choice, with US airlines, in my opinion, being well towards the bottom of the pile.

aidos 13y ago

And presumably they wouldn't need to charge anything like that to make it more comfortable, even taking out a few rows would make a big difference. Having done a couple of 12 hour stretches while holding a small child in my lap, I'd definitely agree with you on making it more comfortable :)

JoeAltmaier 13y ago
This gets tried every couple of years. Trouble is, almost everybody buys the cheapest ticket. ANd taking rows out cuts directly into the bottom line -6 or 12 fewer passengers cuts profit instantly. So it never lasts. You can't fill up a plane this way, and that's the only thing that matters.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  The last intercontinental flight I took, a weighty 6ft6 guy had bought the cheapest seat and expected to get an automatic upgrade on the plane. It's not an exaggeration to say that he literally didn't fit into his seat. Indeed, he got the upgrade: the premium economy section was otherwise empty. Otherwise, the situation would have been beyond unpleasant for everyone around him. The cheapest seats are so small that they need to have at least a few with more space for this type of case. If they can sell them to comfort-sensitive people for a higher price, even better.
- bentcorner 13y ago
  They need to implement two things: 1.) Flexible seating in aircraft so that each seat can be adjusted forward/backwards between flights by flight attendants. Doing this by seat might be awkward for people sitting next to each other, so maybe do it by row. 2.) Bidding-style airline tickets. How much would you pay for the minimum amount of room? How much would you pay to get the maximum amount of room? How much would you pay to be allowed to recline the seat? How much would you pay to prevent the guy in front of you from reclining the seat? These sound like terrible ideas, but in the airline spirit of dynamic pricing I think it fits.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  > "Trouble is, almost everybody buys the cheapest ticket." Ding ding ding! That's the trouble: we've gotten people in a state where they're sensitive to the very last dollar in price. People will actually pick the worse ticket just to save $5. I used to work at an online retailer where part of our job was to market environmentally-friendly, recyclable, easy-to-open (read: no clamshell, no thick plastic) packaging to customers. We did some research into the price premium people are willing to pay for the lack of hassle. The answer was close to zero. This is a classic race to the bottom, I have no ideas on how to fix it.

rwissmann 13y ago

Good point. Airlines seem to have caught on to this with ideas such as extra legroom and premium economy seats.

Breefield 13y ago

Exit rows usually offer this for $50.

ronaldx 13y ago

Going faster would mean less time sat in discomfort. It's OK (for me) to sit in the cheapest seats of a plane for 2-3 hours, but for 6-8 hours is very tough.

k-mcgrady 13y ago
I guess it depends how far you're flying and how much quicker they could make it. 2 hours is my limit before the discomfort starts to get irritating. Usually by the last 2-3 hours of an 8 hour flight I'm counting down the seconds until I can get off.

arethuza 13y ago

British Airways World Traveller Plus is pretty good - much better than BA economy and without the silly cost of real business class: http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/travel-classes/premium-economy/world-traveller-plus http://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/travel-class... [Edit: I did a check on a random flight from LHR <-> SFO and Premium economy was about twice economy and about half of business.]

k-mcgrady 13y ago
Thanks that's the sort of thing I'm looking for although I'd rather they reduced the price slightly and just offered the extra leg room. I don't really care about nicer meals or attentive service.

blackaspen 13y ago

I'll take the faster jet and be enjoying a drink in London before you even get your first "meal service". If you only care about comfort, why don't you take a boat? A transoceanic trip for about $3k will get you an inside room and take ~12 days.

vehementi 13y ago
Are you sure you're replying to the right thread / post? Nobody said anything about only caring about comfort.
- ForHackernews 13y ago
  > I don't really care about going any faster > The problem I find flying is comfort.
  - micampe 13y ago
    "I don't care about going faster" != "I'm cool with going 36x slower"
  - vehementi 13y ago
    You only quoted text, did you mean to follow up with an edit to explain why that is relevant? OP said planes are currently fast enough and they want more comfort rather than more speed, not that comfort is the only priority and the planes can go any speed whatsoever. Could you explain your interpretation?
    - ForHackernews 13y ago
      > A wife asks her husband, a computer programmer; "Could you please go to the store for me and buy one carton of milk, and if they have eggs, get 6!" > A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk. > The wife asks him, "Why the hell did you buy 6 cartons of milk?" > He replied, "They had eggs."

AndrewKemendo 13y ago

Well that is what First Class is for. Oh you wanted it to be the same price? It has only gotten worse since the 60's because now YOU and I can afford to fly. Back in the "golden age" people flew maybe once a year and saved in order to do so. Even then it was mostly well to do people flying - now it may as well be the bus. The relative price per ticket now compared to the 60's is nickles. I flew on spirit airlines a few months ago round trip from DCA to DFW for $128. That's INSANE low. In 1960 dollars that would have been ~$16. You weren't flying anywhere for $16 in the 1960s. People wanted to fly, so the airlines accommodated that by smashing us together and giving us low fares - making themselves not really that rich in the process.

k-mcgrady 13y ago
>> "Well that is what First Class is for. Oh you wanted it to be the same price?" First class is hugely more expensive than economy. I'm proposing a new middle tier. I just did a search for a Belfast > New York flight next month. Economy: £532 Business: £2,636 First class: £6,809 If they added a section with increased space for passengers (no champagne or other extras) and charged £800-1000 for it I'd pay and I'm not someone with money to throw around - that's how uncomfortable I find flying. All I'm asking for is an extra couple feet spacing between seats.
- oesmith 13y ago
  Premium economy? I usually fly between LHR and SFO on BA premium economy. It's usually sub-£1000. Compared to economy, the seats are wider with more leg room and the meals are better. It's a pity they still fly creaking old 747s on that route though. One time went to SFO through LAX where the first leg was on an A380 and that completely spoiled 747s for me. Unfortunately, the A380 doesn't make up for the horrors of connecting onto an AA domestic flight at LAX, so I can't do that all the time now...
- nextw33k 13y ago
  I would imagine that you've identified the problem, the price of the ticket is more related to the extra space you take up and the lost revenue they get. The cost of a few glasses of champagne and slightly better food is a tiny fraction of the cost of flying. First class is that price because they can, people want to differentiate themselves by paying more, not because they get a vastly better experience.

Al-Khwarizmi 13y ago

I am 1.96 m tall (6'5") and I would also pay 10-20% more for some leg room when I pay for the tickets myself. But when I fly for work purposes (i.e. the vast majority of the time), this is not an option, regulations say I can only fly in economy class. I suppose many people is in the same situation. I don't really think having enough space to actually fit in the seat should be considered a premium. It should be a right.

bane 13y ago

I fly to Europe and Asia at least once a year, and somewhere within North America at least once a year. I've flown both coach and business class on all of these. Consistently, the US<->Asia flights are incomparably better. If I could pay a little more and get a Korean Air flight to Paris, I'd do it. Coach on various Asian airlines is about as good as some European and North American airline's business class. Seat comfort, level of service, aircraft cleanliness, etc. I'll add that my back is ready to go out on even a D.C. to Denver leg on United, and I've almost never flown domestically and not gotten some kind of upper respiratory infection as a final parting gift. Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, British Air, United International to Europe is a similar experience, just longer and more horrible. U.S. East Coast to Seoul nonstop is one of the longest routes in current commercial service, and I've hopped off the plane refreshed and ready to go do things every time. The standard kit in coach even includes an eyemask to help you sleep and the flight attendants bring around hot towels every so often so you can wipe down your hands and face. Bathrooms are well stocked with toothbrushes and toothpaste and getting water or snacks outside of regular meal time has never been a problem. On some flights they'll even give you cans of spray water to spritz on your face to cool off and refresh yourself. Food is consistently "decent". And paradoxically, seats are wider, better cushioned and more comfortable than the business class seats I've flown on to Europe on flights half as long. I wish there was some way to bring this level of service to Western airlines, but to be honest, I count a domestic flight on United a success if all the lavatories are in service and don't overflow into the aisle.

jmspring 13y ago
Surprisingly, my last SFO -> Europe flight, the United plane was more comfortable than the Lufthansa return (Economy Plus, vs. plain Economy for LH -- but LH seats are very austere/lack padding it seems).

larsberg 13y ago

> A good solution might be to introduce a new 'mid-tier' class between economy and business. I would happily pay an extra 10-20% for an extra bit of space. United's Economy Plus is huge for me for this reason. An extra 3-6" of legroom (depends on the plane and the flight leg) makes a big difference at that height. It doesn't help at all with seat width though, unfortunately.

true_religion 13y ago

Faster is a big deal for me. Most of my flights are US -> Asia or US -> Africa. Going to Africa is a 25hr + flight due to the need to segue through Europe. Going back is worse since the segue is usually through the Middle East. Going to Asia is a painful crossing over the Pacific with a brief stopover in Hawaii to make it at least 18hrs.