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Fluke owns trademark on multimeters with "contrasting yellow border"
- colanderman 13y agoAnd UPS has a trademark on brown delivery trucks: http://www.ups.com/media/en/trademarks.pdf http://www.ups.com/media/en/trademarks.pdf It's limited in scope and serves to distinguish the brand. Seems reasonable to protect it.
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- hdevalence 13y agoFTFA: > Yellow is awfully broad: In my mind, multimeters have always been yellow. I’ve never had the opportunity to own a Fluke-branded DMM so I’m not sure where my brain picked up this association. I can respect trademarks and company branding and I respect Fluke’s reputation for high-quality multimeters. If Fluke wants to own a color I would expect the USPTO to require them to assign an exact color just like Tiffany’s did with Tiffany Blue. But allowing a company to trademark ‘yellow’ seems broad. This is the diagram in the trademark filing, describing what kind of yellow border is covered: https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/home_page_posts/1/4/2/8/Rough_Fluke_Trademark_Drawing.gif https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/home_page_posts/1/4/2/8/Roug... What could be more clear and limited in scope?
- rbanffy 13y agoMy current multimeter is blue. The previous one was yellow. It's predecessor was black. In any case, the punishment seems a little harsh. They could probably arrive an arrangement where the yellow parts would be replaced by some other color and the multimeters could still be sold. Warning shots are acceptable practice.
- bhousel 13y agoI don't see a problem with this. Fluke is a respected brand with a unique appearance. These multimeters really do look like Fluke ripoffs.
- simonster 13y agoI agree that having to destroy a shipment of perfectly usable multimeters sucks, but this seems like a pretty clear cut case of trademark violation to me. That multimeter really does look like a Fluke multimeter (see https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=fluke+multimeter https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=fluke+multimeter). It was probably designed that way on purpose, probably because Fluke has a reputation for manufacturing high-quality multimeters, and someone could confuse it with a Fluke multimeter at a glance.
- Malarkey73 13y agoMultimeters here in the UK are almost always yellow (or red less often). They've been mostly yellow as long as I can remember and I've never heard of Fluke.
- gjm11 13y agoA bit of googling turns up this forum thread with lots of pictures of old (and not so old) multimeters. A few typical pages: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/540/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/540/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/465/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/465/ Lots and lots of not-yellow multimeters, and the dark-with-yellow-surround ones do generally seems to be Flukes. But not quite all. There are some exceptions here: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/315/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/315/ but I think they may all be recent enough to postdate Fluke's trademark (which I think was granted in 2003).
- rtkwe 13y agoIt's the dark grey/black face + the yellow shell/border that's the problem here. It's really similar to Fluke's usual design.
- phaemon 13y agoI just searched on amazon.co.uk for multimeter and 7 out of 14 of the results have dark face + yellow shell/border. None of them are Fluke. Maybe they did invent that scheme and everyone copied them, but if so, they're not enforcing it in the UK.
- batbomb 13y agoI'm gonna play devil's advocate: That looks like a Fluke DMM knockoff. They could have easily gone with red, orange, green, or some other color I'm sure. It would be nice if they got a warning first though.
- Brashman 13y agoGiven that it's Sparkfun, red would have seemed to be the obvious choice.
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- stronglikedan 13y agoTo a moron in a hurry, it would look exactly like a Fluke product. This is exactly what trademarks are there to protect against, and Fluke is absolutely correct in their actions to protect their brand. This will likely blow up in Sparkfun's face, and rightly so.
- zacinbusiness 13y agoThat's pretty interesting to me because when I read the word "multimeters" in the title I instantly thought of a yellow device, even before I saw "contrasting yellow border." Fluke did a good job there and I think that in this case it's actually a pretty valid point. Also - how long have Fluke been selling their yellow devices?
- thu 13y agoOr maybe actually you think of yellow devices because you saw plenty of non-Fluke yellow multimeters and now letting them appropriate the yellow color everyone associated to multimeters is unfair ? I learned about Fluke making good multimeters probably about 17 years ago, in a student job. I'm pretty sure it was already yellow (and thus before they applied for the trademark).
- mark-r 13y agoRemember they're not claiming the color yellow, they're claiming the contrast between the body and the border. An all yellow multimeter wouldn't be infringing.
- zacinbusiness 13y agoOh yeah that's a good point! That does change it quite a bit, as I wouldn't see, say, a lime green and yellow-bordered device and instantly think "Oh yeah, that's a multimeter" automatically.
- zacinbusiness 13y agoHmm a fair point. Honestly, I always assumed that yellow was sort of an industry standard for multimeters so that they would be easily recognizable say in darker spaces where electricians may not have great lighting.
- Pxtl 13y agoBut you could still make a multimeter that isn't "Yellow border with dark-grey face". You could make an all-yellow device. Or invert the colors (yellow face grey bumper). Or use any other color for either the face or the bumper.
- bhousel 13y ago> So we really only have two options, ship them back or have them destroyed. Having them destroyed costs $150 per hour with no indication of how much time it will take to destroy 2,000 units. Aside: I can think of plenty of fun ways to quickly destroy 2000 cheap multimeters that would not cost $150/hour.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoThe problem is that there is a government contractor near the port who can think of slow ways to do it.
- jebus989 13y agoIn fairness without an idea of destruction time per unit, $150/hour gives no information on the cost of destroying the shipment.
- dm2 13y agoWhy couldn't they just print up and ship out 2000 very cheap blue stickers which were intended to be put on the devices before being sold? Problem solved? Also if they just reverse the color scheme then the trademark will not be violated and people will still associate yellow with high-quality devices.
- deletes 13y agoHere is one way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvBOUy9E5Qw&feature=youtu.be&t=7s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvBOUy9E5Qw&feature=youtu.be&... Don't watch if you are emotionally attached to pc hardware.
- noonespecial 13y agoThey think they are actually going to be "destroyed"? Heh. Find out where the auction will be held. Go buy them back.
- maxmax 13y agoNick is misrepresenting himself somewhat. The letter from Customs mentions 250 units, not 2000. Also, his $30K "loss" is a gross sales loss ($15 retail price * 2000), not Sparkfun's actual loss, which I'd imagine is substantially less.
- gnaffle 13y agoMaybe he has an order in for 2000 units? In any case, they should have ordered them in Sparkfun Red while they were at it.
- stackcollision 13y agoAnd now we see that this isn't just a problem with software. Who knew? e: Apparently everyone thinks I'm confusing a trademark with a copyright or a patent, but I'm not. We just got done with several weeks of people screaming their heads off about King's attempt to trademark the word "Candy". In this thread, everyone is defending Fluke because this yellow outline is a distinguishing mark on their product, and these multimeters DO look like ripoffs. And you know what, I agree. But how is this any different from what everyone was up at arms about only a few weeks ago?
- colanderman 13y agoExactly what software trademarks are you talking about? Linux™? Adobe™ Photoshop™?
- stackcollision 13y agoDidn't we just get over 3 weeks of people screaming about King's trademark attempt on "Candy"?
- chc 13y agoBecause that trademark is overly broad, and thanks to that fact was being used to bully creators of small, non-confusing products. The fact that people are opposed to overly broad trademarks employed for anticompetitive purposes is hardly shocking. That doesn't mean people view trademarks as a general "problem."
- viggity 13y agothis is a trademark issue, not a patent issue, although both are handled by USPTO
- rtkwe 13y agoThis is trademark not patent or copyright.
- rayiner 13y agoThe reason people view trademarks as less problematic is: 1) They are arbitrary and not functional. It doesn't make a difference to the multimeter whether it's yellow or red. 2) Silicon Valley has an existential interest in the $500+ billion advertising industry, which is built on trademarks and branding.
- gohrt 13y agoBlack&Decker has a trademark on orange case/border.
- larrys 13y ago"The USPTO website doesn’t like hard links" For future reference, actually it does: http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=75934005&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=75934005&caseType=SERIAL_N...
- noblethrasher 13y agoJust as an object can have many references in typical programming languages, it is the case that an entity can have many different names in the “tradespace” and you don’t always get to decide what name consumers decide to use. Let us take it as a given that within this particular tradespace, “contrasting yellow border” and “Fluke” just happen to be to references for the same thing, in this case a brand. But that also means that the brand can be damaged through either reference, so it’s incumbent upon the company that depends on that brand to guard those references to the brand.
- yukichan 13y agoWhat gets me is that the agent who inspected the packaging knew about this trademark. There must be a very large number of such trademarks and I doubt all the agents know all of them so for the agent who knew about this trademark to be the one who inspected the shipment seems like really bad luck.
- Erwin 13y agoWhen you ship something to another country you likely have to specify a very precise code for calculation of toll / tariff, see e.g.: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=en&Area=&Taric=9030331090 http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp... Which is the category for Electronic Multimeter Without a Recording Device, NOT for use in an aircraft. I could see a system that cross-references that code with known trademarks -- kind of a like a "Be on Lookout Of" but for design trademarks.
- matt_heimer 13y agoI doubt agents flip through recent filings, memorize a hand full and just get lucky. More likely Fluke or their lawyers have some way to provide alerts to US Customs.
- josho 13y agoAs I read the article I wondered if the inspection was a result of a complaint on Fluke's part and as a result it was a case of justice by money and power? More generally, I wonder how is it possible that inspectors are expected to deal with all the grey market goods that could be entering the border? Perhaps, a better example are children's toy jewellery which on numerous times have been found to have toxic levels of chemicals (eg. lead to levels high enough to send children into hospitals). Do the inspectors actually test for lead, or is their some sort of certification paper that is required? What about those cheap electrical parts that you can buy (e.g. computer/iphone power adapters). I read a tear down report stating that these were unsafe because wiring not done to safety codes, so who is responsible for inspections before they enter the border? The general case is complex, and I've never been able to read how the process is handled, so I assume given the quantity of products being imported they are often priced so cheap because they never go through the QA and safety standards that would be required if they were manufactured here. --Another example of pricing that doesn't factor in the total cost of the good, that is Chinese toys are cheaper than local because they aren't tested to our codes thereby avoiding whole cost structures that local companies incur resulting in cheaper products yet overall they are more expensive to society because 1% of buyers end up in the hospital and incurring those costs.
- mark-r 13y agoIf I'm reading the trademark properly, any contrasting color would be a violation no matter what the color is. Changing to red won't help. This is totally overbroad. Unfortunately once something is approved by the PTO it's almost impossible to overturn.
- rtkwe 13y agoYou're reading it wrong, it's specifically the dark grey color and yellow border/case.
- mark-r 13y agoHow do you read "Color is not claimed as a feature of the mark." then? I admit IANAL.
- njharman 13y agoI read it as no specific single color(s). Rather any yellowish color and any dark greyish color. Otherwise they'd have to list the specific pantone(tme) or whatever for the colors they are claiming.
- coldcode 13y agoI would agree that you can trademark an appearance but yellow is not any kind of identifiable color. This in my mind would make a trademark too vague to hold up in court. But my mind != stupid US government agency. I wonder if you can trademark objects with colors outside human vision. "I'm sorry sir your multimeters glow in the ultraviolet and we own that trademark." It is also unreasonable that there is no option once seized to have it ship to a country other than the origin. After all it may very well be legal in Canada or Poland or somewhere.
- chc 13y agoIt isn't yellow. It's the two contrasting colors. A yellow device would be fine.
- mxfh 13y agoJust wondering when The National Geographic Society will step in. Why should they limit themself to press products only. [EDIT] They have at least two generic trademarks, one with matching class. Class 9 (including electric, measuring): http://trademarks.justia.com/852/58/n-a-85258337.html http://trademarks.justia.com/852/58/n-a-85258337.html Class 16: http://trademarks.justia.com/850/51/n-a-85051489.html http://trademarks.justia.com/850/51/n-a-85051489.html For comparison the less generic Class 9 entry of Fluke: http://trademarks.justia.com/860/76/n-86076075.html http://trademarks.justia.com/860/76/n-86076075.html & http://trademarks.justia.com/860/76/n-86076086.html http://trademarks.justia.com/860/76/n-86076086.html
- Curmudgel 13y agoWell, because trademarks are limited to separate classes. http://trademarkbureau.com/trademark_classes.php http://trademarkbureau.com/trademark_classes.php
- mxfh 13y agoI'm aware of that, also I'm not that serious about it. It doesn't seem to stop National Geographic from licensing their logo to optical instrument manufacturer Bresser. Yellow border on electronic hardware: http://www.bresser.de/publications/national_geo_kat_de_en/HTML/national_geo_de_en_flipping/assets/basic-html/index.html#29 http://www.bresser.de/publications/national_geo_kat_de_en/HT... [EDIT] There are some Class 9 (including electric): http://trademarks.justia.com/852/58/n-a-85258337.html http://trademarks.justia.com/852/58/n-a-85258337.html Class 16: http://trademarks.justia.com/850/51/n-a-85051489.html http://trademarks.justia.com/850/51/n-a-85051489.html
- jes 13y ago"If you drop a meter and it still works, it's a Fluke."
- darkr 13y agoWhereas you drop a meter and it costs the same as a sandwich to replace, it's a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- rtkwe 13y ago> Small business does not have the resources to stay abreast of all trademarks for all the products they don’t carry. I agree that this sucks for Sparkfun, but at some point someone had to think these look a lot like Flukes' multimeters. If you ever find yourself thinking 'this product I'm about to import looks a LOT like $major_market_player's product' then take a second to look up their trademarks. You don't have to stay up to date on every trademark but at least do a cursory search before a big commitment..
- null_ptr 13y ago"Between bad and worse, we have to have them destroyed. Sorry Earth." Sorry Earth indeed. Shit like this probably happens every minute of the day, and it probably cancels out everyone's cumulative efforts towards a more sustainable society. Destroying working products is a gratuitous waste that should be illegal, and that illegality should supersede any trademark law violation. Why not order SparkFun to spray paint them black within a number of days instead?
- bronson 13y agoHow much would that cost?? It isn't like you can hire your nephew to do it for $7/hr. It's seriously difficult to get paint to stick to plastic. When the paint starts peeling, that sounds like a heck of a liability issue.
- happyscrappy 13y agoIt could have been intentional but it was probably just a fluke.
- cushychicken 13y agoEveryone is viewing this as a cloud, but I think, in spite of the costs and legal headaches, Sparkfun has a great opportunity for a silver lining lying right in front of them. Call it "The Sparkfun Multimeter Casing Challenge". Mention their existing industrial design issues. Call on their users (more than a few of which have a 3D printing background) to design a multimeter housing that's unique, and reflects their brand. If they could wangle it, they could even yank out their DMM circuitry from the import-restricted DMMs and send the guts to the contest entrants to make working prototypes. That would be a great way to get design done for free by people excited about the Sparkfun brand.
- skittles 13y agoSeems like switching from yellow to red still leaves them open to law suite. They'll be less likely to lose the suite, but I don't think the court will throw it out based upon the trademark wording. Just make it black.
- sharemywin 13y agoif the filing doesn't it say no color associated with mark? Couldn't you file a cease and desist on the customs office?
- sharemywin 13y agoyou also have to defend your trademark. if there are plenty of examples that violate it it's not a trademark.
- Glyptodon 13y agoWhy can't they just paint them another color instead of destroying them? Is it too expensive or are the rules too stupid?
- gnaffle 13y agoWhere would you find someone to unpack, paint and repack them for less than $15 a piece?
- Glyptodon 13y agoI'm sure it'd be less than $15 dollars a piece. Hire someone to unpack them at $8/hr, someone to paint them at $8/hr, and someone to bag them at $8/hr, and I'd bet you could go through 30+ an hour, which would come out to $0.80/pop for labor. Plus transport and paint. Sure, it costs them, but keep in mind they don't have to make profit, they just have to make back more than the cost of a total loss for it to be worth it. Selling every single one for a few dollars loss should be better than losing them all for a more $$$ loss...
- logfromblammo 13y agoColors in trademarks are tricky. I would argue that the colors of a tool or measurement device serve a functional purpose, namely visibility and outline recognition in low-light conditions, so if I were judging this trademark, I'd ask a few questions: - Is the yellow used by the competitor distinguishable by the human eye from the yellow used by Fluke? - Is the yellow used by Fluke distinct from colors commonly used on similar items to improve visibility, or a color not commonly available in the source materials for similar products? If Fluke buys off-the-shelf plastic pellets, with the same colors used by everyone who makes colored plastic things, they can hardly complain when natural, functional choices in product design replicate their claimed color mark. If they claimed a very specific, non-standard yellow, like rgb(197,247,45), and a specific contrast color, like rgb(0,53,117), I'd defend it in a heartbeat. But let's be honest. If you sell plastic pellets in bulk, and you could only stock 6 colors, they would be transparent, white, black, cyan, magenta, and yellow. At minimum, the customer could melt and mix a specific color within a reasonable gamut. Claiming 2 of those primary pigment colors as trademarked so no one else could use them without significant additional expense is a bit ridiculous. But the wheels of justice have many irregularly shaped cams and cogs, so my common sense approach almost certainly would not have merit in any actual courtroom.
- forgotAgain 13y agoAnyone who has ever worked in an electronics lab knows that the yellow handheld sitting at the edge of the bench is a multimeter and it's from Fluke.
- stronglikedan 13y agoIt's not just the fact that it's yellow, but it's also shaped just like a Fluke. A quick search on multimeters shows various alternative shapes that Sparkfun could have chosen to distinguish themselves. Fluke is correct in protecting their brand, in this case.
- yitchelle 13y agoThis is trademark gone stupid. Will they trademark that fact the probes inserts are located at the bottom of the device and the display is on the top? Sparkfun could just "silently" donate those multimeters to the local tech college.
- stronglikedan 13y agoIt's yellow and shaped just like a Fluke. Sparkfun is in the wrong here. Fluke must protect their brand to keep their trademark valid.
- jggonz 13y agoYes, but their brand is getting a hell of a beating because of this right now. I own Fluke and now I'm thinking of switching because of their stupidity. People that buy a Fluke product buy it not only because it's yellow, but because they have a good reputation as the workhorse multi-meter. I agree that they should protect their trademark, but destroying the product is not the way to go. They could allow SparkFun to donate the multimeters.
- jggonz 13y agoFirst result on an Amazon search for "digital multimeter" is this: http://www.amazon.com/Digital-VOLT-Meter-Voltmeter-Multimeter/dp/B005EK3NRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395244570&sr=8-1&keywords=digital+multimeter http://www.amazon.com/Digital-VOLT-Meter-Voltmeter-Multimete... An $8.00 multimeter (including shipping) with a black body and yellow border. I grew up using Fluke multimeters for electronic experimentations since my father loved them, but I'm really not liking Fluke right now. I think I'll switch over to another multimeter brand unless they work something out with SparkFun before this batch is destroyed.
- hmottestad 13y agoFrom what I remember from a previous case like this you could do a consumer survey and show that no one thinks that yellow multimeters are made by Fluke. It was something along the lines of protecting a trademark, and a trademark stops being a trademark if it gets too diluted. For instance, show the MCD golden arcs to consumers that eat a lot of western fast food and they will all say, MCD. So get a bunch of electrical people who have worked with a number of multimeters and ask them what brand a yellow multimeter is :D
- jff 13y agoAnd if you show a bunch of electrical engineers a multimeter with a grey face and a yellow border, they'll tell you it's a Fluke. Sparkfun will lose that survey, because their knockoff multimeters appear to be designed specifically to look like Flukes. Fluke multimeters really are the best I've ever used. Similarly, Weller soldering stations are the best I've used, and I'd expect them to protect their signature blue case/black front design.
- GregBuchholz 13y ago>Similarly, Weller soldering stations are the best I've used, Be sure to try a Metcal some day. http://www.okinternational.com/metcal/english/globalnavigation/products/hand-soldering-systems http://www.okinternational.com/metcal/english/globalnavigati... ...we have one at work and it is better than the Weller I have at home.
- bananas 13y agoI'm probably going to get kicked in the face for this one but sparkfun are stepping beyond the realms of sensibility here and are turning this into a war with random internet people who get offended easily to draw attention to Fluke and away from themselves and a really crappy purchasing and import decision. I'm well on Fluke's side here as a an actual qualified electrical engineer. I trust Fluke's products and have done for over 20 years. Multimeters are more than just budget devices to measure voltages, amperages and resistance. They sit between you and part of a circuit that might well kill you through electrocution or explosions. All it takes is a miswired socket, earth fault or short in a power supply and you've got 110-240v going up your arm and you're dead. Either that or the meter explodes, removing your fingers or spraying bits of plastic and metal into your eyes. Yes it's that graphic. To present that piece of junk as high quality device for $15 is totally wrong to start with. Even without reviewing it, it's not possible to purchase the isolation circuitry for that price from a Chinese component manufacturer. Sparkfun is purely aimed at amateurs as expected but to go on this witch hunt is wrong. Fluke are worried people will assume that these will be associated with their brand and rightfully so want that association removed. And obviously, on that basis, they're being destroyed so someone agrees. I wouldn't touch one of those meters with a 20 foot long rubber pole and I wouldn't want them on the shelf next to a proper meter. SparkFun are wrong as are probably most of the people cheering for the demise of Fluke here.
- swalsh 13y agoThis is exactly what a trademark is intended for. If I started a home goods store called "Home Hut", and made the logo a large orange square... i'd also be infringing, and for good reason. Home depot has built a reputation, and that trade mark orange is representative of that reputation.
- lsaferite 13y agoAnd if I start a home improvement store using a tomatoish orange and call it "Bob's Home Store" would that also fall afoul of trademark in your book? In the case of the DMM in question, it's not direct knock-off of a Fluke and according to SF the color is more of an orange-yellow than the Fluke safety yellow. SF's whole point is that the TM terms are too vague. Gray with a yellow border. What shade of gray? What shade of yellow? I don't get to claim a whole primary color and say you can make a DMM using any color even close to this.
- mr_spothawk 13y agoWhen i lived in China i found a "Fruke" brand multimeter in the weird back room of a large grocery store where i was shopping. I almost bought the meter for posterity. It looked just like a Fluke... in that it was yellow and grey. #truestory
- pessimizer 13y agoThis story upset me for a moment. My first thought was "a ton of multimeters look like that." After doing google image search for a moment, I realized that all of the multimeters that I've used that looked like that have been Flukes or Chinese/Korean knockoffs of Flukes. There's no reason to make the case yellow and the face grey other than to trade on an existing reputation for quality that Fluke has established. That's exactly why there are trademarks. Pick a different color: I suggest hot pink, or 2-tone checkerboard because I would buy that.
- devicenull 13y agoEveryone seems to be directing their hate at Fluke, which was not at all related in this. People seem to believe that Fluke sued/did something to cause this specific shipment to be seized, when this doesn't seem to be the case. They applied for a trademark on this, and got it. Now CBP is enforcing the trademark. CBP certainly doesn't ask Fluke before seizing a shipment. The issue here should be the trademark process, not Fluke.
- imperialdrive 13y agolol, you peons worried about a yellow border... let Fluke have it if they want, move on...
- wbix 13y agoThe real problem is that Fluke is trademarking yellow. That is just not supposed to possible.