5 ms·

And so the commodityfication of "the coder" begins. Imagine if you wanted to hire an electrician, but before you let them into your house, you ask to follow ar

by antocv 13y ago

And so the commodityfication of "the coder" begins. Imagine if you wanted to hire an electrician, but before you let them into your house, you ask to follow around to see them connect and cut wires? Then you would judge their skills by how fast they can cut and put back together a wire. Thats the level that this "screen sharing, watch him code" does. Is this field that much hammered by pretends? "Top coder" is repulsive.

asadlionpk 13y ago
But it all comes down to how an interviewer is evaluating and dealing the candidate isn't it? Coming up with reasonably quick solutions might not be the criteria for some interviewers, but this is just a tool to make the process simple. How one conducts the interview is not something we can control.
netcan 13y ago
I would argue that electricians are far more commodified and that the trend this is a part of is the opposite of commodification. An electrician is usually licensed, which means they are above a certain, fairly low bar. The average person is far more concerned with avoiding the worst electricians. Beyond that price is the biggest factor and the electricians are interchangeable. Give me the best price for soy that isn't rotten. In coding jobs, employers are trying to identify the best, worst, etc. You can argue against this as a test of quality & qualities, but the net effect is not commoditization.
- asadlionpk 13y ago
  Yes, the objective of this tool and many others is to improve the ability of the employer to identify skills quickly and without false negative...
  - antocv 13y ago
    "Identify skills quickly" thats exactly what this tool does not do. It identifies the most needy/desperate engineers. Anyway, I for sure would not sign up for such a thing, it tells me the recruitment agency or potential employee views software engineering as "typing code skills", like hacker-typer.com. In my opinion a software engineer works more closely to the business and requirements elicitation than just implementation.
    - asadlionpk 13y ago
      no, that example on the page is just one type of rating the employer can give. After all, these are private comments about the candidate. Employer will write what matters to him. Like to me speed does matter, someone unusually fast at coming up with a solution would definitely get my upvote.
- antocv 13y ago
  Well, we need licenses and certifications for our field, to stop these pretenders who are wasting time of recruiters and lowering industry standard... oh hey, perhaps the recruiter field is flourishing due to encouraging these kind of shenanigans? Recruiters dont seem to trust previous experience much anymore, nor do they care about certifications, it is in their interest not to, it is in their interest to "scan" over a huge pile of people and "select the best", for this the engineers all need to be considered equal, despite simpler methods to check background and experience level. At least its an interesting idea to explain this growth in recruitment agencies and skype-interviews.
  - netcan 13y ago
    Would you start by haggling over the word "programmer" or delisting programmers who don't have a recognized degree? Big IT consultancies are probably your best allies in this campaign. They would definitely appreciate being able to order their rate cards for coders,licensed programmers & certified master programmers at different rates. They would also be glad to be on the certification and licensing committees. The shoddier schools would also be on board. "Recognized certification courses" has a nice ring to it. Recruiters would also love it.
bmj 13y ago
Electricians are poor examples: in many states, you must be licensed (which generally requires some combination of education, experience, and certification). Many states also require the electrician to hold some amount of liability insurance. Granted, this does not ensure that the electrician you hire won't screw up, but it at least provides some baseline of competency.
- Fuxy 13y ago
  Most of us have finished schools for this shit so that would more than equal the electricians license. How fast you write code or how much code you write does not equal a good programmer.
  - asadlionpk 13y ago
    But speed does tell the candidate's familiarity with the given problem.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    I'd guess that a licensed electricians can probably perform their jobs better than people that have "finished schools". I've interviewed people with a "master's degree in computer science" that literally did not know what binary search was. Or people 3/4 years through a "computing engineering" degree that would get mixed up with if and while loops. I doubt licensed electricians remained licensed for long if they don't know the difference between hot and neutral wires.
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    Around here electricians go through a 4 year apprenticeship with 4 two month school sessions. Only then do they work without supervision. Plenty of programmers have 2 year certificates or none at all. That being said, I'd consider programming to be a 'creative' profession in many ways...
    - bmj 13y ago
      I wonder if a better analogy might be a carpenter or general contractor. License requirements in most states have little to do skill or experience, but rather with carrying liability insurance and conforming to consumer protection codes.
brokentone 13y ago
Not to entirely judge your sentiment on your analogy, but I think it's fairly apt. I agree that if homeowners are the judge, they might do something like speed of splicing a wire, or maybe wiring an electrical outlet, because that is all they know. However, we're talking about electricians being judged by other electricians in this situation. It's up to the sr. electrician to know what a quality electrician is and judge that effectively. If the sr. or hiring electrician cannot do so, you don't want to work for him/her anyway. This tool is relatively meaningless without qualified people observing. If you threw them some code tests that were merely timed, I would agree with you.
karangoeluw 13y ago
Except a coder and an electrician are not the same.
rcxdude 13y ago
That's a completely spurious analogy. This is obviously meant as a more sophisticated version of the whiteboard for coding interviews. There's a lot of value in that.

by antocv 13y ago

asadlionpk 13y ago

But it all comes down to how an interviewer is evaluating and dealing the candidate isn't it? Coming up with reasonably quick solutions might not be the criteria for some interviewers, but this is just a tool to make the process simple. How one conducts the interview is not something we can control.

netcan 13y ago

I would argue that electricians are far more commodified and that the trend this is a part of is the opposite of commodification. An electrician is usually licensed, which means they are above a certain, fairly low bar. The average person is far more concerned with avoiding the worst electricians. Beyond that price is the biggest factor and the electricians are interchangeable. Give me the best price for soy that isn't rotten. In coding jobs, employers are trying to identify the best, worst, etc. You can argue against this as a test of quality & qualities, but the net effect is not commoditization.

asadlionpk 13y ago
Yes, the objective of this tool and many others is to improve the ability of the employer to identify skills quickly and without false negative...
- antocv 13y ago
  "Identify skills quickly" thats exactly what this tool does not do. It identifies the most needy/desperate engineers. Anyway, I for sure would not sign up for such a thing, it tells me the recruitment agency or potential employee views software engineering as "typing code skills", like hacker-typer.com. In my opinion a software engineer works more closely to the business and requirements elicitation than just implementation.
  - asadlionpk 13y ago
    no, that example on the page is just one type of rating the employer can give. After all, these are private comments about the candidate. Employer will write what matters to him. Like to me speed does matter, someone unusually fast at coming up with a solution would definitely get my upvote.
antocv 13y ago
Well, we need licenses and certifications for our field, to stop these pretenders who are wasting time of recruiters and lowering industry standard... oh hey, perhaps the recruiter field is flourishing due to encouraging these kind of shenanigans? Recruiters dont seem to trust previous experience much anymore, nor do they care about certifications, it is in their interest not to, it is in their interest to "scan" over a huge pile of people and "select the best", for this the engineers all need to be considered equal, despite simpler methods to check background and experience level. At least its an interesting idea to explain this growth in recruitment agencies and skype-interviews.
- netcan 13y ago
  Would you start by haggling over the word "programmer" or delisting programmers who don't have a recognized degree? Big IT consultancies are probably your best allies in this campaign. They would definitely appreciate being able to order their rate cards for coders,licensed programmers & certified master programmers at different rates. They would also be glad to be on the certification and licensing committees. The shoddier schools would also be on board. "Recognized certification courses" has a nice ring to it. Recruiters would also love it.

bmj 13y ago

Electricians are poor examples: in many states, you must be licensed (which generally requires some combination of education, experience, and certification). Many states also require the electrician to hold some amount of liability insurance. Granted, this does not ensure that the electrician you hire won't screw up, but it at least provides some baseline of competency.

Fuxy 13y ago
Most of us have finished schools for this shit so that would more than equal the electricians license. How fast you write code or how much code you write does not equal a good programmer.
- asadlionpk 13y ago
  But speed does tell the candidate's familiarity with the given problem.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  I'd guess that a licensed electricians can probably perform their jobs better than people that have "finished schools". I've interviewed people with a "master's degree in computer science" that literally did not know what binary search was. Or people 3/4 years through a "computing engineering" degree that would get mixed up with if and while loops. I doubt licensed electricians remained licensed for long if they don't know the difference between hot and neutral wires.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  Around here electricians go through a 4 year apprenticeship with 4 two month school sessions. Only then do they work without supervision. Plenty of programmers have 2 year certificates or none at all. That being said, I'd consider programming to be a 'creative' profession in many ways...
  - bmj 13y ago
    I wonder if a better analogy might be a carpenter or general contractor. License requirements in most states have little to do skill or experience, but rather with carrying liability insurance and conforming to consumer protection codes.

brokentone 13y ago

Not to entirely judge your sentiment on your analogy, but I think it's fairly apt. I agree that if homeowners are the judge, they might do something like speed of splicing a wire, or maybe wiring an electrical outlet, because that is all they know. However, we're talking about electricians being judged by other electricians in this situation. It's up to the sr. electrician to know what a quality electrician is and judge that effectively. If the sr. or hiring electrician cannot do so, you don't want to work for him/her anyway. This tool is relatively meaningless without qualified people observing. If you threw them some code tests that were merely timed, I would agree with you.

karangoeluw 13y ago

Except a coder and an electrician are not the same.

rcxdude 13y ago

That's a completely spurious analogy. This is obviously meant as a more sophisticated version of the whiteboard for coding interviews. There's a lot of value in that.