5 ms·

He didn't really explain the full problem so maybe I am not fully appreciating the situation here, but this seems like a pretty big overreaction for a stupid re

He didn't really explain the full problem so maybe I am not fully appreciating the situation here, but this seems like a pretty big overreaction for a stupid request from some a single user.

nknighthb 13y ago
Are you unfamiliar with the phrase he used, "straw that broke the camel's back"?
- gilgoomesh 13y ago
  In this context, it's really a weasel term. He's functionally given no explanation.
  - asuffield 13y ago
    Seems pretty clear - burnout. After 12 years of abuse he's had enough.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    It's a message to his listserv users, not a press release. More context can be found in the archives, or from someone who follows the list closely.
  - woof 13y ago
    If you care about context, read the list....
  - buro9 13y ago
    I would give little explanation too nowadays. In the past I've given lots of information about requests to moderate or otherwise remove content from forums I run. Then I was hit with a cease and desist, and again provided transparency of it. The very predictable Streisand effect kicked in, and then I was hit with a harassment case too (for disclosing the details even though I knew it would likely trigger Streisand). It was all resolved quite peacefully, but one fire-fights these things reasonably over the years and get to learn that the other party is usually not being reasonable. You can either result in escalation, or you can calm things down. It's a lot easier to pick the option that calms things down if it's available to you. And in case above, that was apocalyptic, to close the list without disclosing detail behind it. The last straw really breaks the camels' back. Once broken, it's not getting up to fight on. Life is too short.
  - goatforce5 13y ago
    "I don't want to do this any more" is enough of an explanation to be honest. Receiving legal threats (either real of vague promises of one), being accused of censorship and denying someone's right to freedom of speech (and having to explain that's not how free speech works), cleaning up spam and trying to sort out fights between users really wears you down after a while. A lot of work goes on behind the scenes of running a 'community' and it can be stressful, draining and generally not fun. You are free to try to step in to the gap created by the closure of this list and run a replacement service. I'm sure someone will.
jinzo 13y ago
As someone who had to deal with legal troubles when running a user facing service I can say that it's not that easy if you don't have resources (or knowledge/time) to response correctly to the legal inquiries. For example, a relatively small (by internet standards) "local" forum has a somehow dedicated (it's not their full time job) 3 man legal team that answers all the legal inquiries. If I add one of the latest in the series of my own experiences. Once upon a time someone wanted to scam me on a website deal. We figured out who it was (it was easy, he was the owner of the domain, paid for the hosting etc.) and published the details (we were not the first, he's quite a known scammer around here, we found numerous blogposts about him). He was even featured in a local newspaper. Fast forward 5 or so years and I get a Cease and Desist letter from him (or something looking like that) that the information in my blog post is not accurate and he will sue me. I quickly see that google doesen't bring much about him nowadays, in part to people not caring for their blogs/doing redesigns and in part of him sending out "scary" letters. Of course I could fight it, I had a lot of concrete (I was told court grade by some lawyer acquaintances) proofs. But was it worth my time? My effort? My psych? No. I redacted the blog post and let it be. I don't feel good about it, because that means he will try to scam people that could'we been warned from my post. But I wagered it and left it all behind. EDIT: grammar n'stuff
- unclebucknasty 13y ago
  I cannot think of much that is more thoroughly soul-draining than fighting a legal action that is brought to you. And, the better your case, the more soul-draining it is. I would imagine that it is easy to comply when one knows he is in the wrong. But, when one feels strongly about the cause and is advised that he has an excellent case, then capitulation feels like being bullied and extorted into compromising one's principles. This, even when it is frequently the most prudent thing to do. So, one is left with the sad choice of either compromising his principles or fighting indefinitely at significant cost in time, money, and emotional energy.
- debacle 13y ago
  The only reason legal bullying works is because so many people capitulate at the first sign of conflict.
badman_ting 13y ago
Mm hmm. I'm sure this comment will help.
iuguy 13y ago
If you don't like it, feel free to ask for a refund.

He didn't really explain the full problem so maybe I am not fully appreciating the situation here, but this seems like a pretty big overreaction for a stupid request from some a single user.

nknighthb 13y ago

Are you unfamiliar with the phrase he used, "straw that broke the camel's back"?

gilgoomesh 13y ago
In this context, it's really a weasel term. He's functionally given no explanation.
- asuffield 13y ago
  Seems pretty clear - burnout. After 12 years of abuse he's had enough.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  It's a message to his listserv users, not a press release. More context can be found in the archives, or from someone who follows the list closely.
- woof 13y ago
  If you care about context, read the list....
- buro9 13y ago
  I would give little explanation too nowadays. In the past I've given lots of information about requests to moderate or otherwise remove content from forums I run. Then I was hit with a cease and desist, and again provided transparency of it. The very predictable Streisand effect kicked in, and then I was hit with a harassment case too (for disclosing the details even though I knew it would likely trigger Streisand). It was all resolved quite peacefully, but one fire-fights these things reasonably over the years and get to learn that the other party is usually not being reasonable. You can either result in escalation, or you can calm things down. It's a lot easier to pick the option that calms things down if it's available to you. And in case above, that was apocalyptic, to close the list without disclosing detail behind it. The last straw really breaks the camels' back. Once broken, it's not getting up to fight on. Life is too short.
- goatforce5 13y ago
  "I don't want to do this any more" is enough of an explanation to be honest. Receiving legal threats (either real of vague promises of one), being accused of censorship and denying someone's right to freedom of speech (and having to explain that's not how free speech works), cleaning up spam and trying to sort out fights between users really wears you down after a while. A lot of work goes on behind the scenes of running a 'community' and it can be stressful, draining and generally not fun. You are free to try to step in to the gap created by the closure of this list and run a replacement service. I'm sure someone will.

jinzo 13y ago

As someone who had to deal with legal troubles when running a user facing service I can say that it's not that easy if you don't have resources (or knowledge/time) to response correctly to the legal inquiries. For example, a relatively small (by internet standards) "local" forum has a somehow dedicated (it's not their full time job) 3 man legal team that answers all the legal inquiries. If I add one of the latest in the series of my own experiences. Once upon a time someone wanted to scam me on a website deal. We figured out who it was (it was easy, he was the owner of the domain, paid for the hosting etc.) and published the details (we were not the first, he's quite a known scammer around here, we found numerous blogposts about him). He was even featured in a local newspaper. Fast forward 5 or so years and I get a Cease and Desist letter from him (or something looking like that) that the information in my blog post is not accurate and he will sue me. I quickly see that google doesen't bring much about him nowadays, in part to people not caring for their blogs/doing redesigns and in part of him sending out "scary" letters. Of course I could fight it, I had a lot of concrete (I was told court grade by some lawyer acquaintances) proofs. But was it worth my time? My effort? My psych? No. I redacted the blog post and let it be. I don't feel good about it, because that means he will try to scam people that could'we been warned from my post. But I wagered it and left it all behind. EDIT: grammar n'stuff

unclebucknasty 13y ago
I cannot think of much that is more thoroughly soul-draining than fighting a legal action that is brought to you. And, the better your case, the more soul-draining it is. I would imagine that it is easy to comply when one knows he is in the wrong. But, when one feels strongly about the cause and is advised that he has an excellent case, then capitulation feels like being bullied and extorted into compromising one's principles. This, even when it is frequently the most prudent thing to do. So, one is left with the sad choice of either compromising his principles or fighting indefinitely at significant cost in time, money, and emotional energy.
debacle 13y ago
The only reason legal bullying works is because so many people capitulate at the first sign of conflict.

badman_ting 13y ago

Mm hmm. I'm sure this comment will help.

iuguy 13y ago

If you don't like it, feel free to ask for a refund.