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A few of "Silicon Valley stories" that showed up lately (this one, the one about jobless Satoshi Nakamoto, the one about sexism and harassment in GitHub, or abo

A few of "Silicon Valley stories" that showed up lately (this one, the one about jobless Satoshi Nakamoto, the one about sexism and harassment in GitHub, or about Google/Apple wages conspiracy, or falling FX studios in Hollywood) got me wondering: why developers put so much faith into libertarianism, free market, and a good will of corporations and their HR departments; and/or are so strongly against state social protection, labor unions, etc. - basically all that uncool "heavy industry" stuff that could help in these and many other cases? Are there any labor unions in Silicon Valley? I know about one in Apple, but it is (was?) formed mainly by the folks working at Apple retail stores, not the devs.

roel_v 13y ago
Maybe because some people put morals over personal gain? 'Hey everybody vote socialist, you'll get free stuff!'
- MartinCron 13y ago
  Weird how the "morals over personal gain" argument works as both a pro- and anti- libertarian point.
  - roel_v 13y ago
    Not so weird I think - without wanting to start an 'moral objeectivism vs relativism' discussion, I think we can all agree that there are, between people, wildly varying interpretations of what 'morally good' means.
humanrebar 13y ago
Not being able to afford healthcare without a full-time job at a megacorp isn't because markets are too free. Also, if devs that are older (or women or parents) are undervalued, there is a competitive advantage waiting to be seized by companies that can create business models around that. In other words, being bigoted is not profitable in a free society. Only companies resting on their laurels (or otherwise abusing people) can afford that sort of nonsense in the long run.
- saalweachter 13y ago
  What if it is profitable to be bigoted? What if young coders are more profitable -- willing to work longer hours for less money, lower medical expenses -- than old coders? What's the plan for all of us young coders when we become old coders? Be dead or retired by 40, because you won't be employable after that?
  - VLM 13y ago
    Basically, yes. Its like asking what the world needs to do, to provide jobs for old pro football running backs. First of all the pool is immensely larger than the number of slots, so its statistical randomness that got any individual a slot, secondly its like the arts where you have to get used to the idea that most guitar players are not going to get thru life by playing guitar. STEM jobs are cool for those who can get them, but you need a backup plan to live the rest of your life. Just like you'd tell a kid who thinks he's going to get thru life playing basketball or a guitar.
    - saalweachter 13y ago
      Isn't that basically why football players have such a strong union? To negotiate contracts which give them a fighting chance to retire at 35 when they stop being useful?
      - humanrebar 13y ago
        The players' union is a bit of a special case because the NFL and its teams have special exemptions from the usual anti-monopoly and anti-trust laws.
  - humanrebar 13y ago
    Given your assumptions, young developers would require more compensation so they could retire (or at least retrain) at 40. Like VLM said, there are parallels in other fields. In most of those fields, there's a strong up-or-out pull that: - helps the successful be financially secure when their careers are over - encourages quick failure so a dramatic career change isn't as difficult
bad_user 13y ago
Living in an European country and having some experience with unions by hearing stories and watching the news - first of all, unions are highly political and aren't really meant for the protection of the employees. Also, the existence of unions ends up working against the public's interest. Tell me, what scenario is better for the economy, for taxpayers, for you - (a) company fires 10,000 people and survives, (b) company goes bankrupt, or (c) company receives government bailout and execs go home with fat bonuses. In the end, it's a harsh world we live in and we have to cope with it. I don't know what I'll do when I'll be 50, but seeing all the morons that do have jobs, I have high hopes that even if I won't be able to do software development anymore, I'll be able to change my line of work - because seriously, software developers are amongst the most adaptable people of all industries - think about how many times you had to go in depth to understand a business model, in order to build some software for it. Or maybe I'll be fucked. But one thing I did learn in my 10 years of experience is that successful people in general find time to market themselves, to do networking, etc... even if they don't need to do it.
- Curmudgel 13y ago
  > Living in an European country and having some experience with unions by hearing stories and watching the news - first of all, unions are highly political and aren't really meant for the protection of the employees. That's a bit like saying "I read the news, and I've come to the conclusion that all corporations are plagued by internecine war and exist to steal money." Unions were formed to protect employees. Yes, some unions have become corrupt and greedy, but that does not mean all unions are corrupt and greedy. > Or maybe I'll be fucked. But one thing I did learn in my 10 years of experience is that successful people in general find time to market themselves, to do networking, etc... even if they don't need to do it. The disgusting "anti-poaching" hiring scandal in Silicon Valley that involved almost all of the big companies, e.g. Google, Apple, Adobe, etc. mulcting around 100,000 employees for billions of dollars of wages for several years is good evidence that self-marketing skills are valueless when companies illegally discriminate against you and refuse to hire you because of your employment history. Thousands of talented engineers could not negotiate, switch companies and adapt because the disgusting avarice of the former CEO of Apple prevented them from doing so.
- 13y ago
goalieca 13y ago
There are plenty of young 20-year olds with nothing to lose and lots of bills to pay.

roel_v 13y ago

Maybe because some people put morals over personal gain? 'Hey everybody vote socialist, you'll get free stuff!'

MartinCron 13y ago
Weird how the "morals over personal gain" argument works as both a pro- and anti- libertarian point.
- roel_v 13y ago
  Not so weird I think - without wanting to start an 'moral objeectivism vs relativism' discussion, I think we can all agree that there are, between people, wildly varying interpretations of what 'morally good' means.

humanrebar 13y ago

Not being able to afford healthcare without a full-time job at a megacorp isn't because markets are too free. Also, if devs that are older (or women or parents) are undervalued, there is a competitive advantage waiting to be seized by companies that can create business models around that. In other words, being bigoted is not profitable in a free society. Only companies resting on their laurels (or otherwise abusing people) can afford that sort of nonsense in the long run.

saalweachter 13y ago
What if it is profitable to be bigoted? What if young coders are more profitable -- willing to work longer hours for less money, lower medical expenses -- than old coders? What's the plan for all of us young coders when we become old coders? Be dead or retired by 40, because you won't be employable after that?
- VLM 13y ago
  Basically, yes. Its like asking what the world needs to do, to provide jobs for old pro football running backs. First of all the pool is immensely larger than the number of slots, so its statistical randomness that got any individual a slot, secondly its like the arts where you have to get used to the idea that most guitar players are not going to get thru life by playing guitar. STEM jobs are cool for those who can get them, but you need a backup plan to live the rest of your life. Just like you'd tell a kid who thinks he's going to get thru life playing basketball or a guitar.
  - saalweachter 13y ago
    Isn't that basically why football players have such a strong union? To negotiate contracts which give them a fighting chance to retire at 35 when they stop being useful?
    - humanrebar 13y ago
      The players' union is a bit of a special case because the NFL and its teams have special exemptions from the usual anti-monopoly and anti-trust laws.
- humanrebar 13y ago
  Given your assumptions, young developers would require more compensation so they could retire (or at least retrain) at 40. Like VLM said, there are parallels in other fields. In most of those fields, there's a strong up-or-out pull that: - helps the successful be financially secure when their careers are over - encourages quick failure so a dramatic career change isn't as difficult

bad_user 13y ago

Living in an European country and having some experience with unions by hearing stories and watching the news - first of all, unions are highly political and aren't really meant for the protection of the employees. Also, the existence of unions ends up working against the public's interest. Tell me, what scenario is better for the economy, for taxpayers, for you - (a) company fires 10,000 people and survives, (b) company goes bankrupt, or (c) company receives government bailout and execs go home with fat bonuses. In the end, it's a harsh world we live in and we have to cope with it. I don't know what I'll do when I'll be 50, but seeing all the morons that do have jobs, I have high hopes that even if I won't be able to do software development anymore, I'll be able to change my line of work - because seriously, software developers are amongst the most adaptable people of all industries - think about how many times you had to go in depth to understand a business model, in order to build some software for it. Or maybe I'll be fucked. But one thing I did learn in my 10 years of experience is that successful people in general find time to market themselves, to do networking, etc... even if they don't need to do it.

Curmudgel 13y ago
> Living in an European country and having some experience with unions by hearing stories and watching the news - first of all, unions are highly political and aren't really meant for the protection of the employees. That's a bit like saying "I read the news, and I've come to the conclusion that all corporations are plagued by internecine war and exist to steal money." Unions were formed to protect employees. Yes, some unions have become corrupt and greedy, but that does not mean all unions are corrupt and greedy. > Or maybe I'll be fucked. But one thing I did learn in my 10 years of experience is that successful people in general find time to market themselves, to do networking, etc... even if they don't need to do it. The disgusting "anti-poaching" hiring scandal in Silicon Valley that involved almost all of the big companies, e.g. Google, Apple, Adobe, etc. mulcting around 100,000 employees for billions of dollars of wages for several years is good evidence that self-marketing skills are valueless when companies illegally discriminate against you and refuse to hire you because of your employment history. Thousands of talented engineers could not negotiate, switch companies and adapt because the disgusting avarice of the former CEO of Apple prevented them from doing so.
13y ago

goalieca 13y ago

There are plenty of young 20-year olds with nothing to lose and lots of bills to pay.