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Nonsense like this > For sure, they are plenty of Real Programmers out there, who easily agree to the 80+ hours/week workload. has to stop. I think the oppos

by adamors 13y ago

Nonsense like this > For sure, they are plenty of Real Programmers out there, who easily agree to the 80+ hours/week workload. has to stop. I think the opposite is true: if someone is working 80 hour weeks they either overcompensate for their lack of skill or are being willfully exploited.

gearoidoc 13y ago
Agreed. If there's one danger to our industry, its notions like this. (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it; but most can't. I always try to look at statements like this through the eyes of a would-be programmer. If I was about to start down the programming route and was told I could never achieve my aims without accepting an 80 hour work week then I'd run a mile.
- adamors 13y ago
  > (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it I don't think they're superhuman, they are people who have no lives and will burn out in a short period of time. I can only feel sorry for them.
  - amirmc 13y ago
    This thread seems to assume that there's a clear distinction between 'work' and 'not-work'. That isn't always the case as it's entirely possible that someone can love what they do to the extent that the lines completely blur (yes, that means those people could be exploited for that passion). An example of this is academia where every prof I've met 'works' insane hours but are completely (and happily) absorbed in their fields. The whole thing feels like a hobby to them. The only thing they'd want to get rid of is the paperwork (research assessments, etc) so they could spend that time with students and research.
    - tluyben2 13y ago
      Yep; there is no off switch for me for over 20 years already. I have a clear goal in life which happens to involve a LOT of programming and I work over 80 hours/week for all that time but I don't really see or feel it as work. The fact I make plenty money with it does not make it feel like work. And my family and social life is thriving (I seem to be one of the few people I know who makes new really good (I met 3 of my best friends while I was well over 30) friends all the time while being almost 40). I'm just 24/7 thinking/working on this goal and it involves 12-13 hours of coding/coding related work every day. So what? It's just a hobby which happens to be something people pay well for. I hope I never reach my goal; i'm happy always as I have this goal, it's like a religion I guess, it gets me up in the morning, gives me energy when I need it etc. If you do stuff you don't really like or it's 'just' a job then I wouldn't even work 40 hours for it, but I really don't see what's wrong with 'always on' if this happens to be your life.
    - mattlutze 13y ago
      The "work is their passion so it's not work" contrarian-ism is certainly not uncommon. But the argument against 80 hours is generally stress-induced health and productivity related. Given, if a person "loves what they do" then the stress part is probably lower, reducing the negative effects of the first. But the other argument is that, after so many hours, returns on effort are reduced, and I don't see a good argument for this being not true whether a person is in love with their vocation. I would posit that a likely scenario, is that the 80-hour-a-weeker's passion for their work their concern for efficiency. They don't get as much done per hour, but they don't care as much because they love the parts even where they are just plodding along.
      - anaphor 13y ago
        I agree, arguably one of the most productive programmers of all time apparently still manages to get 8 hours of sleep usually: "Losing sleep to hit a deadline the next day is valid, but it isn't a productivity enhancer. I have always needed a full 8hrs for good work." https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/436351780243259393 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/436351780243259393
      - 13y ago
  - gearoidoc 13y ago
    I'd be inclined to agree with you but I know less than a handful of people who work crazy hours and maintain a great social life, and have done so for many years. Whether they suffer some epic burnout in years to come remains to be seen but I hope not for their sake.
Bahamut 13y ago
That crossed my eyes as well - if I feel unproductive, I take a break. If I feel drained mentally for the day, I leave, even if it means leaving 2 hours early. I learned from graduate school that you get the most productivity when your mind is sharp. It makes no sense to work an 80 hour work week programming if your mind can't handle it, and especially if your employer isn't compensating you appropriately - the most I've done is 56 hours, and that was due to having to quickly turnaround a broken project upon starting work at my current job (the most I've worked in a week since then was 48 hours I think). That said, when I leave work, I often am coding at home on side projects and other self-learning/experimentation initiatives, but at my own pace. I have the freedom to do a lot of extra coding, or none at all, and that in itself can be invigorating when it comes to programming.

by adamors 13y ago

gearoidoc 13y ago

Agreed. If there's one danger to our industry, its notions like this. (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it; but most can't. I always try to look at statements like this through the eyes of a would-be programmer. If I was about to start down the programming route and was told I could never achieve my aims without accepting an 80 hour work week then I'd run a mile.

adamors 13y ago
> (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it I don't think they're superhuman, they are people who have no lives and will burn out in a short period of time. I can only feel sorry for them.
- amirmc 13y ago
  This thread seems to assume that there's a clear distinction between 'work' and 'not-work'. That isn't always the case as it's entirely possible that someone can love what they do to the extent that the lines completely blur (yes, that means those people could be exploited for that passion). An example of this is academia where every prof I've met 'works' insane hours but are completely (and happily) absorbed in their fields. The whole thing feels like a hobby to them. The only thing they'd want to get rid of is the paperwork (research assessments, etc) so they could spend that time with students and research.
  - tluyben2 13y ago
    Yep; there is no off switch for me for over 20 years already. I have a clear goal in life which happens to involve a LOT of programming and I work over 80 hours/week for all that time but I don't really see or feel it as work. The fact I make plenty money with it does not make it feel like work. And my family and social life is thriving (I seem to be one of the few people I know who makes new really good (I met 3 of my best friends while I was well over 30) friends all the time while being almost 40). I'm just 24/7 thinking/working on this goal and it involves 12-13 hours of coding/coding related work every day. So what? It's just a hobby which happens to be something people pay well for. I hope I never reach my goal; i'm happy always as I have this goal, it's like a religion I guess, it gets me up in the morning, gives me energy when I need it etc. If you do stuff you don't really like or it's 'just' a job then I wouldn't even work 40 hours for it, but I really don't see what's wrong with 'always on' if this happens to be your life.
  - mattlutze 13y ago
    The "work is their passion so it's not work" contrarian-ism is certainly not uncommon. But the argument against 80 hours is generally stress-induced health and productivity related. Given, if a person "loves what they do" then the stress part is probably lower, reducing the negative effects of the first. But the other argument is that, after so many hours, returns on effort are reduced, and I don't see a good argument for this being not true whether a person is in love with their vocation. I would posit that a likely scenario, is that the 80-hour-a-weeker's passion for their work their concern for efficiency. They don't get as much done per hour, but they don't care as much because they love the parts even where they are just plodding along.
    - anaphor 13y ago
      I agree, arguably one of the most productive programmers of all time apparently still manages to get 8 hours of sleep usually: "Losing sleep to hit a deadline the next day is valid, but it isn't a productivity enhancer. I have always needed a full 8hrs for good work." https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/436351780243259393 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/436351780243259393
    - 13y ago
- gearoidoc 13y ago
  I'd be inclined to agree with you but I know less than a handful of people who work crazy hours and maintain a great social life, and have done so for many years. Whether they suffer some epic burnout in years to come remains to be seen but I hope not for their sake.

Bahamut 13y ago

That crossed my eyes as well - if I feel unproductive, I take a break. If I feel drained mentally for the day, I leave, even if it means leaving 2 hours early. I learned from graduate school that you get the most productivity when your mind is sharp. It makes no sense to work an 80 hour work week programming if your mind can't handle it, and especially if your employer isn't compensating you appropriately - the most I've done is 56 hours, and that was due to having to quickly turnaround a broken project upon starting work at my current job (the most I've worked in a week since then was 48 hours I think). That said, when I leave work, I often am coding at home on side projects and other self-learning/experimentation initiatives, but at my own pace. I have the freedom to do a lot of extra coding, or none at all, and that in itself can be invigorating when it comes to programming.