5 ms·

The problem is not java the lang. It's the java developers. Looks like they moved on to do angular now.

edwinnathaniel 13y ago
That's a good sign. Y'all JS devs need to learn something from Java community (especially the engineering/quality side) even if you guys have to go through the pain of Java growth (small => medium => bloated => denial => acceptance => cleaning up => shaping up for the future).
- puppetmaster3 13y ago
  It's a bad sign for .js devs: trouble ahead.
  - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
    JS ecosystems in terms of quality, tooling, and engineering is already bad, can't be worse than that really... PS: No, yet-another-js-library-to-replace-jquery is not considered tooling. No, yet-another-replacement-for-grunt/bower/yeoman is not a good sign of the ecosystems. Java has Maven since 2004.
    - puppetmaster3 13y ago
      Maven is horible. Hth
      - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
        It's awesome and other tools (bundler) are copying it or build on top of it (gradle, buildr, Ivy repo). XML is horrible, not Maven. Python tools don't even come close. Ditto with .NET NuGet. Find me a tool that can compare feature by feature with Maven and still relevant for a long time.
        Buttons840 13y ago
        I've always said: "With Java plus XML, you can have one language for the price of two." With Java, you write a lot of syntax to get static typing, but it's worth it because static typing! Then you throw static typing away (because now it's to restrictive I suppose?) to use XML files which must be structured a certain unpredictable way or you'll cry at the traceback you receive, and pray your imminent Google search can make sense of it all.
        RyanZAG 13y ago
        Nobody with any sense uses XML in Java anymore. Everything uses annotations now.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        Well, your responses mostly amount to "OMG, I hate Java coders / everything there sucks" etc. Not really insightful.
- Bahamut 13y ago
  Amusingly, I'm undergoing that transition right now from doing mostly JS to doing JS & Java professionally. I'm not sure how I feel about Java so far, although there are problems that I want to solve in the Java backend at work for future scalability, since the quality of code is actually worse than our frontend code currently.
asdafa 13y ago
I partly agree with this. I'm a systems engineer, but I have to touch some Java code from time to time. I always have an hard time with the amount of indirection an average Java developer can reach. Luckily a few smart guys were hired recently and they have past experience in contributing to the JVM and their approach to the code is completely different and much, much more simple to understand, and since they came onboard the performance of critical parts of our main application increased dramatically with a few lines of code instead of the previous 400 or so.
- fleitz 13y ago
  Isn't it amazing how fast applications can go when they stop doing things they don't need to do?
- userbinator 13y ago
  > I always have an hard time with the amount of indirection an average Java developer can reach. It probably has to do with the "enterprise" culture that tends to err on the side of overgeneralising things and applying far too much abstraction (Java came into being at a time when the OOP fad was gaining significant traction.) The standard library also being in that style encourages this too. But things like Java4K suggest that it's definitely possible to do a lot in a tiny amount of code.

That's a good sign. Y'all JS devs need to learn something from Java community (especially the engineering/quality side) even if you guys have to go through the pain of Java growth (small => medium => bloated => denial => acceptance => cleaning up => shaping up for the future).

puppetmaster3 13y ago
It's a bad sign for .js devs: trouble ahead.
- edwinnathaniel 13y ago
  JS ecosystems in terms of quality, tooling, and engineering is already bad, can't be worse than that really... PS: No, yet-another-js-library-to-replace-jquery is not considered tooling. No, yet-another-replacement-for-grunt/bower/yeoman is not a good sign of the ecosystems. Java has Maven since 2004.
  - puppetmaster3 13y ago
    Maven is horible. Hth
    - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
      It's awesome and other tools (bundler) are copying it or build on top of it (gradle, buildr, Ivy repo). XML is horrible, not Maven. Python tools don't even come close. Ditto with .NET NuGet. Find me a tool that can compare feature by feature with Maven and still relevant for a long time.
      - Buttons840 13y ago
        I've always said: "With Java plus XML, you can have one language for the price of two." With Java, you write a lot of syntax to get static typing, but it's worth it because static typing! Then you throw static typing away (because now it's to restrictive I suppose?) to use XML files which must be structured a certain unpredictable way or you'll cry at the traceback you receive, and pray your imminent Google search can make sense of it all.
        RyanZAG 13y ago
        Nobody with any sense uses XML in Java anymore. Everything uses annotations now.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      Well, your responses mostly amount to "OMG, I hate Java coders / everything there sucks" etc. Not really insightful.
Bahamut 13y ago
Amusingly, I'm undergoing that transition right now from doing mostly JS to doing JS & Java professionally. I'm not sure how I feel about Java so far, although there are problems that I want to solve in the Java backend at work for future scalability, since the quality of code is actually worse than our frontend code currently.

asdafa 13y ago

I partly agree with this. I'm a systems engineer, but I have to touch some Java code from time to time. I always have an hard time with the amount of indirection an average Java developer can reach. Luckily a few smart guys were hired recently and they have past experience in contributing to the JVM and their approach to the code is completely different and much, much more simple to understand, and since they came onboard the performance of critical parts of our main application increased dramatically with a few lines of code instead of the previous 400 or so.

fleitz 13y ago
Isn't it amazing how fast applications can go when they stop doing things they don't need to do?
userbinator 13y ago
> I always have an hard time with the amount of indirection an average Java developer can reach. It probably has to do with the "enterprise" culture that tends to err on the side of overgeneralising things and applying far too much abstraction (Java came into being at a time when the OOP fad was gaining significant traction.) The standard library also being in that style encourages this too. But things like Java4K suggest that it's definitely possible to do a lot in a tiny amount of code.