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> extremely addictive and harmful drugs Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims?

by pstuart 13y ago

jcalvinowens 13y ago
> Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims? It is very possible to use alcohol recreationally without becoming physically dependent on it. You can't say the same for drugs like heroin or meth.
- nine_k 13y ago
  Actually, you have to use heroin regularly for months to become physiologically addicted. The time is shorter than for alcohol but not instantaneous. What catches people is a psychological addiction: heroin high just feels incredibly good (disclaimer: I did not try it so I translate other peoples' opinions). But the same can be said about alcohol, sugar, games like the infamous 2048, and great many other things. Of course there are substances that would kill the user quickly and harm even from one use, like PCP or the infamous krokodil. But the same can be said about methanol, or sulphuric acid, or many other hazardous substances. These substances are appropriately packed, abundantly labeled with warnings — but their use is not banned.
  - jcalvinowens 13y ago
    > Actually, you have to use heroin regularly for months to become physiologically addicted. I don't think I'm remiss in saying that most who start using heroin do in fact get to that point, am I? > These substances are appropriately packed, abundantly labeled with warnings — but their use is not banned. Comparing sulphuric acid to heroin is a huge stretch for me. Sure, injecting sulphuric acid into your arm is definitely going to be a lot more harmful than heroin... but heroin is intended to be used as a drug, and is harmful when used as intended. The acid is not.
    - nine_k 13y ago
      Though I don't have any stats ready on how many heroin users end up as addicts that actually hurt their health, and how many recover later, you don't seem to have it either. Before we have some kind of numbers, I don't think discussing this can lead anywhere constructive. I'm pretty sure that most users of nicotine (as smoked tobacco or in electronic cigarettes) get physiologically addicted pretty quickly, and in a pretty hard way. Though this is inconvenient to them, it usually does not bother people around, because nicotine is not a behavior-altering substance (unlike alcohol or cocaine). AFAIK, heroin is not a behavior-altering substance either. It's the lack of a dose what dangerously alters the behavior of a heroine addict (or an alcohol addict). Since heroin is outlawed, users have far lower thresholds to pass to act unlawfully in other regards, since they feel like criminals already. A heavy nicotine addict may suffer immensely without a fix, but usually stays a lawful citizen despite it. Take insulin: it's also intended to be used as a drug, and improper use can quickly kill you. Thats why it's a prescription-only substance, but a completely lawful one. Quite a few over-the-counter drugs can kill you, or at least severely cripple you, if used improperly. Do you think outlawing them is a good idea? (Hell, 3/4 pound of table salt, if ingested quickly, would kill you. I hope you exercise reason when adding salt to your food.)
      - jcalvinowens 13y ago
        > Quite a few over-the-counter drugs can kill you, or at least severely cripple you, if used improperly. Do you think outlawing them is a good idea? No, of course I don't: making something illegal because it is dangerous when misused or used contrary to its intended purpose is silly. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that a substance that is created to be used in a specific manner, and causes known substantial harm when used in that manner should not be tolerated by society. That's what a cigarette is: it's this thing that is made to be used in a way that has been shown without a shadow of a doubt to contribute to many fatal ailments in a major way. I put heroin and meth in that category: dangerously addictive substances that are known to cause substantial harm when used as intended.
        gnaritas 13y ago
thesimpsons1022 13y ago
this is an argument against alcohol, not for other drugs. And personally I think society would be better off without it.
- benched 13y ago
  Well, sure, if you're pulling assertions out of thin air that agree with your narrow-minded views, and declaring them fact.
  - thesimpsons1022 13y ago
    1. when did i pull an assertion out of thin air? I stated my opinion, I didn't "assert" anything. 2. why am I narrow-minded for disagreeing with you? that seems pretty "narrow-minded" to "assert" that. 3. I never said we should outlaw alcohol but I don't think anyone would disagree that society would be a lot better if alcohol didn't exist.

> extremely addictive and harmful drugs Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims?

by pstuart 13y ago

> extremely addictive and harmful drugs Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims?

> Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims? It is very possible to use alcohol recreationally without becoming physically dependent on it. You can't say the same for drugs like heroin or meth.

nine_k 13y ago
Actually, you have to use heroin regularly for months to become physiologically addicted. The time is shorter than for alcohol but not instantaneous. What catches people is a psychological addiction: heroin high just feels incredibly good (disclaimer: I did not try it so I translate other peoples' opinions). But the same can be said about alcohol, sugar, games like the infamous 2048, and great many other things. Of course there are substances that would kill the user quickly and harm even from one use, like PCP or the infamous krokodil. But the same can be said about methanol, or sulphuric acid, or many other hazardous substances. These substances are appropriately packed, abundantly labeled with warnings — but their use is not banned.
- jcalvinowens 13y ago
  > Actually, you have to use heroin regularly for months to become physiologically addicted. I don't think I'm remiss in saying that most who start using heroin do in fact get to that point, am I? > These substances are appropriately packed, abundantly labeled with warnings — but their use is not banned. Comparing sulphuric acid to heroin is a huge stretch for me. Sure, injecting sulphuric acid into your arm is definitely going to be a lot more harmful than heroin... but heroin is intended to be used as a drug, and is harmful when used as intended. The acid is not.
  - nine_k 13y ago
    Though I don't have any stats ready on how many heroin users end up as addicts that actually hurt their health, and how many recover later, you don't seem to have it either. Before we have some kind of numbers, I don't think discussing this can lead anywhere constructive. I'm pretty sure that most users of nicotine (as smoked tobacco or in electronic cigarettes) get physiologically addicted pretty quickly, and in a pretty hard way. Though this is inconvenient to them, it usually does not bother people around, because nicotine is not a behavior-altering substance (unlike alcohol or cocaine). AFAIK, heroin is not a behavior-altering substance either. It's the lack of a dose what dangerously alters the behavior of a heroine addict (or an alcohol addict). Since heroin is outlawed, users have far lower thresholds to pass to act unlawfully in other regards, since they feel like criminals already. A heavy nicotine addict may suffer immensely without a fix, but usually stays a lawful citizen despite it. Take insulin: it's also intended to be used as a drug, and improper use can quickly kill you. Thats why it's a prescription-only substance, but a completely lawful one. Quite a few over-the-counter drugs can kill you, or at least severely cripple you, if used improperly. Do you think outlawing them is a good idea? (Hell, 3/4 pound of table salt, if ingested quickly, would kill you. I hope you exercise reason when adding salt to your food.)
    - jcalvinowens 13y ago
      > Quite a few over-the-counter drugs can kill you, or at least severely cripple you, if used improperly. Do you think outlawing them is a good idea? No, of course I don't: making something illegal because it is dangerous when misused or used contrary to its intended purpose is silly. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that a substance that is created to be used in a specific manner, and causes known substantial harm when used in that manner should not be tolerated by society. That's what a cigarette is: it's this thing that is made to be used in a way that has been shown without a shadow of a doubt to contribute to many fatal ailments in a major way. I put heroin and meth in that category: dangerously addictive substances that are known to cause substantial harm when used as intended.
      - gnaritas 13y ago

thesimpsons1022 13y ago

this is an argument against alcohol, not for other drugs. And personally I think society would be better off without it.

benched 13y ago
Well, sure, if you're pulling assertions out of thin air that agree with your narrow-minded views, and declaring them fact.
- thesimpsons1022 13y ago
  1. when did i pull an assertion out of thin air? I stated my opinion, I didn't "assert" anything. 2. why am I narrow-minded for disagreeing with you? that seems pretty "narrow-minded" to "assert" that. 3. I never said we should outlaw alcohol but I don't think anyone would disagree that society would be a lot better if alcohol didn't exist.