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All the responses here have been solidly middle class condemnations. There are so many forces at work here, I don't even know where to begin. I grew up in the

All the responses here have been solidly middle class condemnations. There are so many forces at work here, I don't even know where to begin. I grew up in the American middle class, and probably felt the same way many of you do. I became more sensitive to this sort of thing by: a) Talking to my wife, who is an immigrant from a lower class, who came here so she could be something. She's a professor now, so we've seen the whole spectrum of society. b) Experiencing first hand what the system does to people, even those who try really hard to help themselves. It sucks. It's not fair. It's unjust. It provides perverse incentives. You want to believe that's not true, but it's true. You see him buying a few beers out of context, and you feel justified in thinking he'd better just man up, but you have no /idea/ what that situation is like, and probably (hopefully?) never will. I suggest reading Pedagogy of the Oppressed to start to get an inkling of what goes on: http://www.amazon.com/Pedagogy-Oppressed-Paulo-Freire/dp/0826412769 http://www.amazon.com/Pedagogy-Oppressed-Paulo-Freire/dp/082...

edw519 17y ago
I don't need to read a book to understand your point. It's easy to criticize these people and difficult for many of us to imagine what life is like in their shoes. Most people I know (and probably most people here) want to be sympathetic, they want to root for the underdog. For those in need, we routinely open up our wallets, both voluntarily with a smile (charity) and involuntarily without a smile (taxes). The analogy I prefer to use is teaching your child to walk. We never give up, but we can't walk for them. Sooner or later they have to do it for themselves. And some have an easier time than others learning. Adults dealing with difficulties are much the same. These people are obviously having a tougher time than most people here would with their problems. But based on OP's slim descriptions, they still have to try harder. What you call "middle class condemnations", many posters here would just call "calling them out". Forget about the lottery tickets, beer, soda, and donuts, and get a little more proactive. And for heaven's sake, if someone offers you a job, grab it! Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here.
- teeja 17y ago
  "Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here." Cuz when their unemployment ran out, they'd not be able to make it on her $1000/month...no way, no how. So it didn't make sense to change their plans.
mcantelon 17y ago
Public schooling doesn't, to my knowledge, promote economic or mental health. American corporations have spent a lot of money promoting stupidity over the last century ("Century of the Self" is a great documentary on how they did it). When you come from a milieu that doesn't think about the future and live in a society where people are encouraged not to think about the future, it's easy to end up an economic casualty.
- nazgulnarsil 17y ago
  actually americans constantly look towards the future much more than other societies.
  - abalashov 17y ago
    I can corroborate that from my experience as a native-born Russian. Americans do spend an awful lot of time planning and thinking - and, at least, hypothesising - about the future. In Eastern European culture, people really do "live for today" far, far more. It is my impression that is true of many other non-Angloamerican societies as well.
nazgulnarsil 17y ago
It provides perverse incentives. and here we have the primary problem. those unjust situations are usually the indirect effect of other people acting on their perverse incentives.
profgubler 17y ago
Before he lost his job they were middle class. He made $53,000 dollars a year in Northern Indiana. I make considerably less with a wife and kid with one on the way, in a more expensive part of Indiana. I don't even live pay check to pay check. To say we are the middle class condemning the middle class is false. He was the middle class himself.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  To say we are the middle class condemning the middle class is false. He was the middle class himself. I think you mean "middle class condeming working/lower class..." but excellent point.
  - profgubler 17y ago
    You are correct. Thank you.
- pmichaud 17y ago
  Class isn't really about income. The guy in the story was "working class" despite an income that arguably put him in the lower middle class. Class is about culture and education.
stonemetal 17y ago
>All the responses here have been solidly middle class condemnations. There are so many forces at work here, I don't even know where to begin. Sorry, but no That story could have been written about my dad almost 30 years ago when gas prices climbed and manufacturing in IN collapsed. Only my dad didn't sit on his butt, drink beer, and waste money on lotto tickets and gambling. We moved to Texas so he could get a refinery job which didn't pan out and he took up with day laborers until he got a job managing a fast food joint. Then He put himself through college by working nights. You do what you have to do, quitting is for losers like this guy.
timwiseman 17y ago
You are right, and I have extreme sympathy for the genuinely poor. But remember by the article, until recently they were middle class. They had a household income of over 75K and they were not living in a major city so did not (likely) have extraordinary cost of living. I am not condemning them (but for the grace of God go I...), and I for one still sympathize, but I sympathized a lot less when I read about the name brand soda, Xbox, dirtbike, guns, beers,.. than I would have without them. Turning down the job didn't help. I do understand that in one sense it is rational since she would be making less take home, but it still didn't help.

edw519 17y ago

I don't need to read a book to understand your point. It's easy to criticize these people and difficult for many of us to imagine what life is like in their shoes. Most people I know (and probably most people here) want to be sympathetic, they want to root for the underdog. For those in need, we routinely open up our wallets, both voluntarily with a smile (charity) and involuntarily without a smile (taxes). The analogy I prefer to use is teaching your child to walk. We never give up, but we can't walk for them. Sooner or later they have to do it for themselves. And some have an easier time than others learning. Adults dealing with difficulties are much the same. These people are obviously having a tougher time than most people here would with their problems. But based on OP's slim descriptions, they still have to try harder. What you call "middle class condemnations", many posters here would just call "calling them out". Forget about the lottery tickets, beer, soda, and donuts, and get a little more proactive. And for heaven's sake, if someone offers you a job, grab it! Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here.

teeja 17y ago
"Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here." Cuz when their unemployment ran out, they'd not be able to make it on her $1000/month...no way, no how. So it didn't make sense to change their plans.

mcantelon 17y ago

Public schooling doesn't, to my knowledge, promote economic or mental health. American corporations have spent a lot of money promoting stupidity over the last century ("Century of the Self" is a great documentary on how they did it). When you come from a milieu that doesn't think about the future and live in a society where people are encouraged not to think about the future, it's easy to end up an economic casualty.

nazgulnarsil 17y ago
actually americans constantly look towards the future much more than other societies.
- abalashov 17y ago
  I can corroborate that from my experience as a native-born Russian. Americans do spend an awful lot of time planning and thinking - and, at least, hypothesising - about the future. In Eastern European culture, people really do "live for today" far, far more. It is my impression that is true of many other non-Angloamerican societies as well.

nazgulnarsil 17y ago

It provides perverse incentives. and here we have the primary problem. those unjust situations are usually the indirect effect of other people acting on their perverse incentives.

profgubler 17y ago

Before he lost his job they were middle class. He made $53,000 dollars a year in Northern Indiana. I make considerably less with a wife and kid with one on the way, in a more expensive part of Indiana. I don't even live pay check to pay check. To say we are the middle class condemning the middle class is false. He was the middle class himself.

timwiseman 17y ago
To say we are the middle class condemning the middle class is false. He was the middle class himself. I think you mean "middle class condeming working/lower class..." but excellent point.
- profgubler 17y ago
  You are correct. Thank you.
pmichaud 17y ago
Class isn't really about income. The guy in the story was "working class" despite an income that arguably put him in the lower middle class. Class is about culture and education.

stonemetal 17y ago

>All the responses here have been solidly middle class condemnations. There are so many forces at work here, I don't even know where to begin. Sorry, but no That story could have been written about my dad almost 30 years ago when gas prices climbed and manufacturing in IN collapsed. Only my dad didn't sit on his butt, drink beer, and waste money on lotto tickets and gambling. We moved to Texas so he could get a refinery job which didn't pan out and he took up with day laborers until he got a job managing a fast food joint. Then He put himself through college by working nights. You do what you have to do, quitting is for losers like this guy.

timwiseman 17y ago

You are right, and I have extreme sympathy for the genuinely poor. But remember by the article, until recently they were middle class. They had a household income of over 75K and they were not living in a major city so did not (likely) have extraordinary cost of living. I am not condemning them (but for the grace of God go I...), and I for one still sympathize, but I sympathized a lot less when I read about the name brand soda, Xbox, dirtbike, guns, beers,.. than I would have without them. Turning down the job didn't help. I do understand that in one sense it is rational since she would be making less take home, but it still didn't help.