7 ms·

For Many Americans, Nowhere to Go but Down

53 points by paulbaumgart 17y ago

jzdziarski 17y ago
I feel for the guy, but he is complaining he doesn't have any money left over, yet he buys 4 packs of cigs a week, pays for some possibly unnecessary K-Mart layaway merchandise, drinks "beer-after-beer-after-beer", gambles, and eats donuts. There's a whole lot of money they could be saving - I'm sure even more thats in the article if these are his normal habits... to make ends meet. If he is really interested in doing everything he can to save money, these things should have been gone by now. If he were a buddy of mine, I'd tell him to do that and then I'd help him out.
stuff4ben 17y ago
geez that was depressing.
- miles 17y ago
  The only depressing thing is how the family is handling their situation: "Scott and Kelly spend much of their time watching TV, or playing games on their cellphones since they lost their jobs. Every day has become a slow-motion version of the one before, sitting around the house, each in the same spot, Kelly in the recliner, and Scott on the couch. Scott has gained 40 pounds since his last day on the job... On Monday, Scott picks up his and Kelly's unemployment benefits. After paying some bills, he sometimes goes to the Winners Circle bar, the tan building reflected in the glass, where he recently won $100 in a NASCAR betting pool." Something tells me that is probably not the best approach. I have written to the reporter for their address so I can send a copy of Napolean Hill's Think and Grow Rich. A single passage from the book lifted me from a deep depression while stuck penniless in Japan to creating and surpassing my most cherished goals.
  - swolchok 17y ago
    It should be striking how our newly poor and unemployed get fat instead of battling starvation, and how we nonetheless tacitly disapprove of the family for going nowhere and having no initiative to do something with their lives. Perhaps the problem is that coasting on our safety net represents a significant local maximum in quality of life, and that we have a hard time getting the incentives lined up so that we can offer aid for the long term and actually enforce long-term decision-making. We find government intrusion into personal choice distasteful, but I for one don't want to provide more to people who aren't going to use it for upward mobility for themselves and their families. How can we provide messaging and examples of every day people who have made a difference for themselves and their families through study and hard work?
    - swombat 17y ago
      You could tie the unemployment checks to reskilling programs. E.g. you earn 20% more unemployment benefits if you sign up for one of these local programs to teach you various skills that are actually in demand. Seems pretty straightforward - the hardest part is determining which skills are in demand, but anyone with a newspaper's job ads section in hand should be able to do that.
      - swolchok 17y ago
        The problem is tying the money to a good faith effort, not just signup. That's probably hard and costly to enforce.
  - mrbgty 17y ago
    Can you tell us more about this passage?
    - il 17y ago
      Think and Grow Rich is an amazing book. You should read the book itself, it's not long, but the premise of the book is basically that most wealthy people got wealthy the same way: 1. Making a through, detailed plan on how they will get rich. 2. Doggedly and relentlessly following that plan with incredible perseverance and not giving up. It's simple. but if you think about it, it could change your life. Personally, I don't feel bad for these people at all. It's not the economy, it's mindset. Some people have an entrepreneur mentality, and some people have a victim mentality. If I sat around all day drinking beer and buying lottery tickets, I would probably be in the same place he is. Instead, I'm going to spend the next 12 hours setting up advertising campaigns with the expectation that 90% of them will fail. I will continue working until I hit that 10% that will succeed, which enables me to live comfortably and earn more than I could at a day job running my own business. My point is that the bad economy often makes an all to convenient scapegoat for some people. Living paycheck to paycheck is not a good financial strategy regardless of economy.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
        pyre 17y ago
        Please expand on this if you want to be view as anything but a troll. Making inflammatory comments like this is not a way t convince people that your way of thinking is right. On the contrary, it's much more likely to close people's minds to anything you have to say. As a counter-point, think about what the 'conservative' members of Congress would say if the public were to demand that they take a reduction in pay and benefits (members of Congress have the best health/retirement benefits of anyone in this country). From my point of view, they would probably play themselves up as victims of some sort of 'liberal conspiracy' rather than debating the motion on its merits.
      - 17y ago
  - ja27 17y ago
    I used volunteer for the Red Cross. Several times a week I would work with families after they had house fires. Whatever money we spent on them (clothes, shoes, food, medications, a place to stay while the found new housing, etc.) was nothing compared to spending time helping them make a plan to get their life back together. It reached the point that I always wrapped up with them by making them promise that they weren't going to just "lock up" and sit in the hotel for a couple days watching TV and avoiding life. I know of a local church that now has a career helping program. One night a week they'll get people together with others that can help with resumes, networking, and financial planning.
paulbaumgart 17y ago
This is the Freakonomics commentary on the article (by way of which I found the article in the first place): http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/what-does-this-sad-story-say-to-you/ http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/what-does-t... Reading the comments on the Freakonomics page, some of which really are harsh, makes me wonder about the family's motivations for allowing a reporter to probe into fairly personal details of their lives- and write about it in a national newspaper. The article doesn't portray them in a particularly positive light. Maybe they just figure it's a chance for a little bit of fame and attention, but it still seems like a brave thing to do.
- jlees 17y ago
  Maybe it's the first smart thing they've done financially; surely a sob story like this is going to attract some attention from people who may be placed to help, financially or otherwise.
edw519 17y ago
Only now he's off to collect their unemployment benefits, electronically delivered to their bank accounts by the state of Indiana: $268 for Kelly... "It's 28 hours, eight bucks an hour," she says. No benefits, she adds. "You say, 'Thank you, but -- '?" "Yup," she says. "I make more on unemployment." So she turns down a job that pays $224 per week so she can continue to collect $268 per week unemployment compensation after 9 months. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture? Has she even considered: - that 28 hours could turn into more - that $8 could turn into more - that no benefits could turn into benefits - that she may meet someone at work who could refer her to a better job (lots of people pass through a chiropractor's office each day, a lot more than she meets at home) - that she may meet someone at work who could refer Scott to a job At what point should we expect people dealing with difficulties to try a little harder to help themselves?
- ShabbyDoo 17y ago
  A friend who is an armchair economist (in a good way), noted that America's poor apply a much too high discount factor to future cash flow streams. In other words, they place too much value int today's pleasure and not enough in the avoidance of future pain. It's this short-sightedness that let them end up in this situation.
  - petewarden 17y ago
    > It's this short-sightedness that let them end up in this situation. When you're close to the poverty line you've been taught by experience that saved money will be just eaten up by future crises anyway, so why not enjoy a little treat while you can? If future pain seems unavoidable, why not take some pleasure today?
    - abalashov 17y ago
      That is a common precept of the human experience above the poverty line, too.
    - ShabbyDoo 17y ago
      >When you're close to the poverty line A year ago, the man alone was making $53K! Let's presume the woman contributed at least another $25K. That's a well above-average household income in America.
pavel_lishin 17y ago
I wonder if any families have joined forces and got houses together, instead of moving across the country to some dingy hell-hole, to live in their parents' basements.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  I know many - but they are all immigrants who do not have the notion that owning your own single-family home is a birthright. Hell, the city where I grew up had to revise the hydro scheme from flat-rate to metered just because there were so many families combining into what used to be a single-family home. I also know many families who invested in a large house and rent out a suite to another family. The mortgage practically pays itself, and with some renovations you can preserve your privacy also. In the words of my parents, who are both Asian immigrants to Canada, who come from poor backgrounds (well, one of them anyways): some people have had too good of a life, and can't sacrifice what they need to sacrifice when times get tough, as they invariably do.
- tjic 17y ago
  Isn't "living in your parents' basement" and EXAMPLE of families that have joined forces and gotten houses together?
JanezStupar 17y ago
Well it's obvious to me why there's nowhere to go but down. They're not trying to go anywhere else. They're not that bad financially. In our country a lot of people make less money working - while living expenses are higher than in USA actually - (we have round 25K $ GDP per capita) with higher food, fuel and home prices (services are more expensive in USA). It's not the lack of money that is dragging them down - it's the lack of living power and motivation. They are 30+ year olds with mentality of an 8 year.
maukdaddy 17y ago
"When he lost his job, Scott had no savings, his primary objective always having been to earn enough to cover the rent, eat an occasional steak, feed and clothe their children, ride his dirt bike, fish, golf, play poker, buy lottery tickets, and drink Bud Light." Um you have to be kidding me.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  They lost me at golf. Ride his dirt bike? Sure, a fairly inexpensive (and fun!) pasttime. Fishing? Same deal. Golf? Holy Batman, golf is an expensive sport to get into. I'm making double what he did at his peak, and I don't feel like a golf club membership.
  - maukdaddy 17y ago
    I don't care how poor you are, or how little you make, 12 months of savings is a MUST. I simply can't imagine living paycheck-to-paycheck like that.
    - potatolicious 17y ago
      To add to your point: don't just save, have a pre-sorted plan to reduce your burn rate drastically. Always know the barest minimum burn rate you can have, and keep plans to take it down that low if necessary. A lesson I learned from my student days, when money was highly variable month-to-month. I don't do so right now, but I can take my food budget down to about $200 a month in a pinch, and shed a lot of other expenses (Netflix, VPS, etc) with little to no penalty. Keep your head in reality and know what in your life is a luxury and what is a need.
    - abalashov 17y ago
      That's easy to say...
    - timwiseman 17y ago
      I agree with the concept, but it is hard to do when you are on the low end (and can take time to build up), and if you are on the very low end 12 months of savings for normal expenses can get wiped out with just a few minor emergencies.
pmichaud 17y ago
All the responses here have been solidly middle class condemnations. There are so many forces at work here, I don't even know where to begin. I grew up in the American middle class, and probably felt the same way many of you do. I became more sensitive to this sort of thing by: a) Talking to my wife, who is an immigrant from a lower class, who came here so she could be something. She's a professor now, so we've seen the whole spectrum of society. b) Experiencing first hand what the system does to people, even those who try really hard to help themselves. It sucks. It's not fair. It's unjust. It provides perverse incentives. You want to believe that's not true, but it's true. You see him buying a few beers out of context, and you feel justified in thinking he'd better just man up, but you have no /idea/ what that situation is like, and probably (hopefully?) never will. I suggest reading Pedagogy of the Oppressed to start to get an inkling of what goes on: http://www.amazon.com/Pedagogy-Oppressed-Paulo-Freire/dp/0826412769 http://www.amazon.com/Pedagogy-Oppressed-Paulo-Freire/dp/082...
- edw519 17y ago
  I don't need to read a book to understand your point. It's easy to criticize these people and difficult for many of us to imagine what life is like in their shoes. Most people I know (and probably most people here) want to be sympathetic, they want to root for the underdog. For those in need, we routinely open up our wallets, both voluntarily with a smile (charity) and involuntarily without a smile (taxes). The analogy I prefer to use is teaching your child to walk. We never give up, but we can't walk for them. Sooner or later they have to do it for themselves. And some have an easier time than others learning. Adults dealing with difficulties are much the same. These people are obviously having a tougher time than most people here would with their problems. But based on OP's slim descriptions, they still have to try harder. What you call "middle class condemnations", many posters here would just call "calling them out". Forget about the lottery tickets, beer, soda, and donuts, and get a little more proactive. And for heaven's sake, if someone offers you a job, grab it! Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here.
  - teeja 17y ago
    "Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here." Cuz when their unemployment ran out, they'd not be able to make it on her $1000/month...no way, no how. So it didn't make sense to change their plans.
notirk 17y ago
This guy worked for 2 decades paycheck-to-paycheck? He had zero savings after working for 20 years. He never bought a home and has one beat up car and one that is broken down? Did he spend all his money on smokes, beer, donuts, pepsi and gambling? Does he expect sympathy? Stop gambling, stop smoking, buy some cheap healthy food for your family, rice and beans perhaps? If you need beer (really, 8 in the middle of the day when you have no job?) buy a 6 pack for home, it's cheaper. Take any job you can get and network/work your ass off. None of this is complicated or hard to figure out. I feel bad for their children.
unohoo 17y ago
"When he lost his job, Scott had no savings, his primary objective always having been to earn enough to cover the rent, eat an occasional steak, feed and clothe their children, ride his dirt bike, fish, golf, play poker, buy lottery tickets, and drink Bud Light." This is the primary reason for the hardship that majority of the middle americans are facing in this tough times. There has never been a culture of 'saving'. as an asian immigrant, saving has been deeply rooted into my psyche. Travel and recreation is one thing, but golf, fish, poker, lottery - when you have 2 kids and a wife to support ? all aside, i thoroughly enjoyed reading the comments on HN more than the story itself.
- edw519 17y ago
  i thoroughly enjoyed reading the comments on HN more than the story itself. That's the whole point. If a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? If you read an article on the internet without hn comments, did you really get all you could out of it?
  - unohoo 17y ago
    in fact 2 of your comments to this thread were the ones that resonated the most -- coincidence ?
- nazgulnarsil 17y ago
  I have heard (though I have not seen the hard statistics) that the savings rate in china averages 1/3rd of take home pay. This more than any "analysis" made me think that china will make good on its economic aspirations. for god's sake even some PROFESSIONAL ECONOMISTS in America think that consumption improves an economy rather than deferred consumption and investment.
  - unohoo 17y ago
    I wont be surprised if thats their savings rate - savings rate is similarly pretty high in india and several other asian countries as well. however, the advent of capitalism and 'opening the economy' has seen some recent dwindling of the savings rates.
abalashov 17y ago
I feel bad for these folks (I myself grew up in South Bend, Ind., right next door to Elkhart), but, I do have to say that to some extent, this is just a consequence of tying your career and your fate to a frivolous recreational fad that is highly dependent on ultra, ultra-cheap and plentiful energy as an input, and then getting yourself into a highly leveraged financial position on top of it. The moment that stops being the case, that economic sector stops being. You just have to either 1) get the skill set and make a career in something that seems to be durable and sustainable and for which there is always a certain level of demand, or 2) take the appropriate risk-mitigation measures if you want to go work in something more ephemeral. No, nothing lasts forever, and in capitalism, everything changes. But some things clearly change more than others, and the change is of a higher magnitude. Basing your family's fate around a pure-recreational industry is really no better than playing games as a businessperson with pointless non-value-added risk-free regulatory arbitrage opportunities (of which there is MUCH in telecom) or spreads that arise in various loopholes. That's just not a good way to ensure that there will be a tomorrow.
- abalashov 17y ago
  Why is this being voted down?
dtap 17y ago
The general populous of HN has a slightly skewed view of how quickly and violently the lives of many Americans has changed. I am from Detroit and have seen thousands of people, including my parents, rise to middle class as an unskilled laborer. Those jobs are gone, and should have been 25 years ago. This recession has finally pushed them over the edge and it leaves many people behind. It is tough to criticize a man whose way of life, however perverse, vaporised in a matter of a few years. It existed for so long and lulled many people into believing it was real. Now they are paying for it.
Lagged2Death 17y ago
Why do so many people, on reading a piece like this, immediately start to argue about who's fault it all is? Is that really the most important aspect of the situation? Is determination of fault likely to lead to a solution?
brianobush 17y ago
depressing and actually not an isolated case. the story highlights problems in America: laziness, gluttony, little or no education, and worse... inability to fix their own problems that do have solutions. of course, the problems are always someone else's...
teeja 17y ago
This is actually the first story I've seen about the unemployed from a major paper in the last year.

53 points by paulbaumgart 17y ago

I feel for the guy, but he is complaining he doesn't have any money left over, yet he buys 4 packs of cigs a week, pays for some possibly unnecessary K-Mart layaway merchandise, drinks "beer-after-beer-after-beer", gambles, and eats donuts. There's a whole lot of money they could be saving - I'm sure even more thats in the article if these are his normal habits... to make ends meet. If he is really interested in doing everything he can to save money, these things should have been gone by now. If he were a buddy of mine, I'd tell him to do that and then I'd help him out.

stuff4ben 17y ago

geez that was depressing.

miles 17y ago
The only depressing thing is how the family is handling their situation: "Scott and Kelly spend much of their time watching TV, or playing games on their cellphones since they lost their jobs. Every day has become a slow-motion version of the one before, sitting around the house, each in the same spot, Kelly in the recliner, and Scott on the couch. Scott has gained 40 pounds since his last day on the job... On Monday, Scott picks up his and Kelly's unemployment benefits. After paying some bills, he sometimes goes to the Winners Circle bar, the tan building reflected in the glass, where he recently won $100 in a NASCAR betting pool." Something tells me that is probably not the best approach. I have written to the reporter for their address so I can send a copy of Napolean Hill's Think and Grow Rich. A single passage from the book lifted me from a deep depression while stuck penniless in Japan to creating and surpassing my most cherished goals.
- swolchok 17y ago
  It should be striking how our newly poor and unemployed get fat instead of battling starvation, and how we nonetheless tacitly disapprove of the family for going nowhere and having no initiative to do something with their lives. Perhaps the problem is that coasting on our safety net represents a significant local maximum in quality of life, and that we have a hard time getting the incentives lined up so that we can offer aid for the long term and actually enforce long-term decision-making. We find government intrusion into personal choice distasteful, but I for one don't want to provide more to people who aren't going to use it for upward mobility for themselves and their families. How can we provide messaging and examples of every day people who have made a difference for themselves and their families through study and hard work?
  - swombat 17y ago
    You could tie the unemployment checks to reskilling programs. E.g. you earn 20% more unemployment benefits if you sign up for one of these local programs to teach you various skills that are actually in demand. Seems pretty straightforward - the hardest part is determining which skills are in demand, but anyone with a newspaper's job ads section in hand should be able to do that.
    - swolchok 17y ago
      The problem is tying the money to a good faith effort, not just signup. That's probably hard and costly to enforce.
- mrbgty 17y ago
  Can you tell us more about this passage?
  - il 17y ago
    Think and Grow Rich is an amazing book. You should read the book itself, it's not long, but the premise of the book is basically that most wealthy people got wealthy the same way: 1. Making a through, detailed plan on how they will get rich. 2. Doggedly and relentlessly following that plan with incredible perseverance and not giving up. It's simple. but if you think about it, it could change your life. Personally, I don't feel bad for these people at all. It's not the economy, it's mindset. Some people have an entrepreneur mentality, and some people have a victim mentality. If I sat around all day drinking beer and buying lottery tickets, I would probably be in the same place he is. Instead, I'm going to spend the next 12 hours setting up advertising campaigns with the expectation that 90% of them will fail. I will continue working until I hit that 10% that will succeed, which enables me to live comfortably and earn more than I could at a day job running my own business. My point is that the bad economy often makes an all to convenient scapegoat for some people. Living paycheck to paycheck is not a good financial strategy regardless of economy.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
      - pyre 17y ago
        Please expand on this if you want to be view as anything but a troll. Making inflammatory comments like this is not a way t convince people that your way of thinking is right. On the contrary, it's much more likely to close people's minds to anything you have to say. As a counter-point, think about what the 'conservative' members of Congress would say if the public were to demand that they take a reduction in pay and benefits (members of Congress have the best health/retirement benefits of anyone in this country). From my point of view, they would probably play themselves up as victims of some sort of 'liberal conspiracy' rather than debating the motion on its merits.
    - 17y ago
- ja27 17y ago
  I used volunteer for the Red Cross. Several times a week I would work with families after they had house fires. Whatever money we spent on them (clothes, shoes, food, medications, a place to stay while the found new housing, etc.) was nothing compared to spending time helping them make a plan to get their life back together. It reached the point that I always wrapped up with them by making them promise that they weren't going to just "lock up" and sit in the hotel for a couple days watching TV and avoiding life. I know of a local church that now has a career helping program. One night a week they'll get people together with others that can help with resumes, networking, and financial planning.

paulbaumgart 17y ago

This is the Freakonomics commentary on the article (by way of which I found the article in the first place): http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/what-does-this-sad-story-say-to-you/ http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/what-does-t... Reading the comments on the Freakonomics page, some of which really are harsh, makes me wonder about the family's motivations for allowing a reporter to probe into fairly personal details of their lives- and write about it in a national newspaper. The article doesn't portray them in a particularly positive light. Maybe they just figure it's a chance for a little bit of fame and attention, but it still seems like a brave thing to do.

jlees 17y ago
Maybe it's the first smart thing they've done financially; surely a sob story like this is going to attract some attention from people who may be placed to help, financially or otherwise.

edw519 17y ago

Only now he's off to collect their unemployment benefits, electronically delivered to their bank accounts by the state of Indiana: $268 for Kelly... "It's 28 hours, eight bucks an hour," she says. No benefits, she adds. "You say, 'Thank you, but -- '?" "Yup," she says. "I make more on unemployment." So she turns down a job that pays $224 per week so she can continue to collect $268 per week unemployment compensation after 9 months. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture? Has she even considered: - that 28 hours could turn into more - that $8 could turn into more - that no benefits could turn into benefits - that she may meet someone at work who could refer her to a better job (lots of people pass through a chiropractor's office each day, a lot more than she meets at home) - that she may meet someone at work who could refer Scott to a job At what point should we expect people dealing with difficulties to try a little harder to help themselves?

ShabbyDoo 17y ago
A friend who is an armchair economist (in a good way), noted that America's poor apply a much too high discount factor to future cash flow streams. In other words, they place too much value int today's pleasure and not enough in the avoidance of future pain. It's this short-sightedness that let them end up in this situation.
- petewarden 17y ago
  > It's this short-sightedness that let them end up in this situation. When you're close to the poverty line you've been taught by experience that saved money will be just eaten up by future crises anyway, so why not enjoy a little treat while you can? If future pain seems unavoidable, why not take some pleasure today?
  - abalashov 17y ago
    That is a common precept of the human experience above the poverty line, too.
  - ShabbyDoo 17y ago
    >When you're close to the poverty line A year ago, the man alone was making $53K! Let's presume the woman contributed at least another $25K. That's a well above-average household income in America.

pavel_lishin 17y ago

I wonder if any families have joined forces and got houses together, instead of moving across the country to some dingy hell-hole, to live in their parents' basements.

potatolicious 17y ago
I know many - but they are all immigrants who do not have the notion that owning your own single-family home is a birthright. Hell, the city where I grew up had to revise the hydro scheme from flat-rate to metered just because there were so many families combining into what used to be a single-family home. I also know many families who invested in a large house and rent out a suite to another family. The mortgage practically pays itself, and with some renovations you can preserve your privacy also. In the words of my parents, who are both Asian immigrants to Canada, who come from poor backgrounds (well, one of them anyways): some people have had too good of a life, and can't sacrifice what they need to sacrifice when times get tough, as they invariably do.
tjic 17y ago
Isn't "living in your parents' basement" and EXAMPLE of families that have joined forces and gotten houses together?

JanezStupar 17y ago

Well it's obvious to me why there's nowhere to go but down. They're not trying to go anywhere else. They're not that bad financially. In our country a lot of people make less money working - while living expenses are higher than in USA actually - (we have round 25K $ GDP per capita) with higher food, fuel and home prices (services are more expensive in USA). It's not the lack of money that is dragging them down - it's the lack of living power and motivation. They are 30+ year olds with mentality of an 8 year.

maukdaddy 17y ago

potatolicious 17y ago
They lost me at golf. Ride his dirt bike? Sure, a fairly inexpensive (and fun!) pasttime. Fishing? Same deal. Golf? Holy Batman, golf is an expensive sport to get into. I'm making double what he did at his peak, and I don't feel like a golf club membership.
- maukdaddy 17y ago
  I don't care how poor you are, or how little you make, 12 months of savings is a MUST. I simply can't imagine living paycheck-to-paycheck like that.
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    To add to your point: don't just save, have a pre-sorted plan to reduce your burn rate drastically. Always know the barest minimum burn rate you can have, and keep plans to take it down that low if necessary. A lesson I learned from my student days, when money was highly variable month-to-month. I don't do so right now, but I can take my food budget down to about $200 a month in a pinch, and shed a lot of other expenses (Netflix, VPS, etc) with little to no penalty. Keep your head in reality and know what in your life is a luxury and what is a need.
  - abalashov 17y ago
    That's easy to say...
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    I agree with the concept, but it is hard to do when you are on the low end (and can take time to build up), and if you are on the very low end 12 months of savings for normal expenses can get wiped out with just a few minor emergencies.

pmichaud 17y ago

All the responses here have been solidly middle class condemnations. There are so many forces at work here, I don't even know where to begin. I grew up in the American middle class, and probably felt the same way many of you do. I became more sensitive to this sort of thing by: a) Talking to my wife, who is an immigrant from a lower class, who came here so she could be something. She's a professor now, so we've seen the whole spectrum of society. b) Experiencing first hand what the system does to people, even those who try really hard to help themselves. It sucks. It's not fair. It's unjust. It provides perverse incentives. You want to believe that's not true, but it's true. You see him buying a few beers out of context, and you feel justified in thinking he'd better just man up, but you have no /idea/ what that situation is like, and probably (hopefully?) never will. I suggest reading Pedagogy of the Oppressed to start to get an inkling of what goes on: http://www.amazon.com/Pedagogy-Oppressed-Paulo-Freire/dp/0826412769 http://www.amazon.com/Pedagogy-Oppressed-Paulo-Freire/dp/082...

edw519 17y ago
I don't need to read a book to understand your point. It's easy to criticize these people and difficult for many of us to imagine what life is like in their shoes. Most people I know (and probably most people here) want to be sympathetic, they want to root for the underdog. For those in need, we routinely open up our wallets, both voluntarily with a smile (charity) and involuntarily without a smile (taxes). The analogy I prefer to use is teaching your child to walk. We never give up, but we can't walk for them. Sooner or later they have to do it for themselves. And some have an easier time than others learning. Adults dealing with difficulties are much the same. These people are obviously having a tougher time than most people here would with their problems. But based on OP's slim descriptions, they still have to try harder. What you call "middle class condemnations", many posters here would just call "calling them out". Forget about the lottery tickets, beer, soda, and donuts, and get a little more proactive. And for heaven's sake, if someone offers you a job, grab it! Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here.
- teeja 17y ago
  "Choosing to stay on unemployment instead of working earns little sympathy here." Cuz when their unemployment ran out, they'd not be able to make it on her $1000/month...no way, no how. So it didn't make sense to change their plans.

notirk 17y ago

This guy worked for 2 decades paycheck-to-paycheck? He had zero savings after working for 20 years. He never bought a home and has one beat up car and one that is broken down? Did he spend all his money on smokes, beer, donuts, pepsi and gambling? Does he expect sympathy? Stop gambling, stop smoking, buy some cheap healthy food for your family, rice and beans perhaps? If you need beer (really, 8 in the middle of the day when you have no job?) buy a 6 pack for home, it's cheaper. Take any job you can get and network/work your ass off. None of this is complicated or hard to figure out. I feel bad for their children.

unohoo 17y ago

"When he lost his job, Scott had no savings, his primary objective always having been to earn enough to cover the rent, eat an occasional steak, feed and clothe their children, ride his dirt bike, fish, golf, play poker, buy lottery tickets, and drink Bud Light." This is the primary reason for the hardship that majority of the middle americans are facing in this tough times. There has never been a culture of 'saving'. as an asian immigrant, saving has been deeply rooted into my psyche. Travel and recreation is one thing, but golf, fish, poker, lottery - when you have 2 kids and a wife to support ? all aside, i thoroughly enjoyed reading the comments on HN more than the story itself.

edw519 17y ago
i thoroughly enjoyed reading the comments on HN more than the story itself. That's the whole point. If a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? If you read an article on the internet without hn comments, did you really get all you could out of it?
- unohoo 17y ago
  in fact 2 of your comments to this thread were the ones that resonated the most -- coincidence ?
nazgulnarsil 17y ago
I have heard (though I have not seen the hard statistics) that the savings rate in china averages 1/3rd of take home pay. This more than any "analysis" made me think that china will make good on its economic aspirations. for god's sake even some PROFESSIONAL ECONOMISTS in America think that consumption improves an economy rather than deferred consumption and investment.
- unohoo 17y ago
  I wont be surprised if thats their savings rate - savings rate is similarly pretty high in india and several other asian countries as well. however, the advent of capitalism and 'opening the economy' has seen some recent dwindling of the savings rates.

abalashov 17y ago

I feel bad for these folks (I myself grew up in South Bend, Ind., right next door to Elkhart), but, I do have to say that to some extent, this is just a consequence of tying your career and your fate to a frivolous recreational fad that is highly dependent on ultra, ultra-cheap and plentiful energy as an input, and then getting yourself into a highly leveraged financial position on top of it. The moment that stops being the case, that economic sector stops being. You just have to either 1) get the skill set and make a career in something that seems to be durable and sustainable and for which there is always a certain level of demand, or 2) take the appropriate risk-mitigation measures if you want to go work in something more ephemeral. No, nothing lasts forever, and in capitalism, everything changes. But some things clearly change more than others, and the change is of a higher magnitude. Basing your family's fate around a pure-recreational industry is really no better than playing games as a businessperson with pointless non-value-added risk-free regulatory arbitrage opportunities (of which there is MUCH in telecom) or spreads that arise in various loopholes. That's just not a good way to ensure that there will be a tomorrow.

abalashov 17y ago
Why is this being voted down?

dtap 17y ago

The general populous of HN has a slightly skewed view of how quickly and violently the lives of many Americans has changed. I am from Detroit and have seen thousands of people, including my parents, rise to middle class as an unskilled laborer. Those jobs are gone, and should have been 25 years ago. This recession has finally pushed them over the edge and it leaves many people behind. It is tough to criticize a man whose way of life, however perverse, vaporised in a matter of a few years. It existed for so long and lulled many people into believing it was real. Now they are paying for it.

Lagged2Death 17y ago

Why do so many people, on reading a piece like this, immediately start to argue about who's fault it all is? Is that really the most important aspect of the situation? Is determination of fault likely to lead to a solution?

brianobush 17y ago

depressing and actually not an isolated case. the story highlights problems in America: laziness, gluttony, little or no education, and worse... inability to fix their own problems that do have solutions. of course, the problems are always someone else's...

teeja 17y ago

This is actually the first story I've seen about the unemployed from a major paper in the last year.