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> keep pull request comments professional Actually, this struck me as purely a "remember who you're talking to" problem - the team were used to a more aggressi

by mst 13y ago

> keep pull request comments professional Actually, this struck me as purely a "remember who you're talking to" problem - the team were used to a more aggressive level of language than the new hire was, so what should've happened is that the team should've learned to make the same strength of point with less aggressive words and the new hire should've worked to take aggressive words less to heart. Being as I'm a blunt bastard, I've been through this a fair few times with employees and contributors. This is not a gendered problem, this is a 'loud brash people' versus 'quieter nicer people' problem. The reason people try and make it gendered is because, at least on average from the people I've worked with, women are more likely to be 'quieter nicer people' - but the truth, honestly, is that rather than anti-women this is a 'no structured group exists to stand up for the quieter nicer men so they go unnoticed' situation. I've had to unpick these issues with all combinations of people. > have management review reverts Actually, just having a manager take him aside and say "dude, you're being a dick and either you stop it right fucking now or there will be consequences that you're really not going to enjoy" should be sufficient. Shadowcat is a relatively flat org but we have just enough hierarchy that there are people who can absolutely do that. Sadly, the article goes back to the founder's wife problem (which, omgwtf, but that's been analyzed to death upthread) so we don't know whether it was reported (of course, dependending on who she'd've needed to report it to, that may've been difficult ...)

MartinCron 13y ago
This is not a gendered problem, this is a 'loud brash people' versus 'quieter nicer people' problem It's my hope that having a more diverse workplace will help the "quiet nice people" with and without Y chromosomes.
- mst 13y ago
  Diversity exists on many axis, and personality types are an important form of it just as much as gender is. I find your use of 'more diverse' to mean 'more gender balanced' distasteful, because privileging gender roles as important like that is a huge part of the problem.
  - MartinCron 13y ago
    You misinterpret what I mean and find it distasteful? I am overcome with apathy.
    - mst 13y ago
      If that wasn't what you meant then your original comment could've been reduced to "I agree".
erikpukinskis 13y ago
I don't think it matters whether it was reported. Unless the founder gives his wife an explicit role and tells employees where he ends and she beings, it's fair to assume that low-level employees are going to assume he is fully aware of her interactions, and she is acting as his right hand. I realize that's a lot of assumptions, but that's why the founder needs to get out in front of these things and make them explicit.
- mst 13y ago
  I was addressing everything except the founder's wife problem; you're in the wrong thread.
  - mst 13y ago
    The above was early morning crankiness but I really wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the other failures.
abalone 13y ago
The point is, in the lean management organization you don't really have someone to take you aside and tell you to stop being a dick. This is especially problematic when trying to overcome culturally calcified gender discrimination. What you're describing as being a "blunt bastard" could very well come off as male-privileged locker room talk. In the sports world there have been numerous attempts to contort locker room talk as somehow gender neutral, just a function of personality, some women talk that way, not all men do, and so forth. These arguments miss the forest for the trees: there does exist a culture of male privilege that is overwhelmingly less welcoming to women.
- theorique 13y ago
  But how do we distinguish between this possibility, and the possibility that we are treating women as delicate flowers who can't deal with 'bad words' or blunt criticism? In the Victorian era, until relatively recent times, men were expected to refrain from swearing or discussing 'serious' subjects such as war or politics when 'ladies were present'. The usage (or not) of blunt words of criticism or profanity in informal company documents (e.g. code comments, pull requests) isn't necessarily a gendered thing. It speaks to the company's culture, but it nevertheless feels like a step backward to suggest the corporate equivalent of "gentlemen need to mind their language when ladies are around".
- abalone 13y ago
  theorique, it's like asking whether complimenting someone passing on the street is a nice sweet thing to do or outrageously sexist. You could come up with rationalizations either way. But it's ultimately about the environment that it creates and how women (or minorities) feel in it. And that's up to the women, not the dudes rationalizing the status quo.
- mst 13y ago
  > These arguments miss the forest for the trees: there does exist a culture of male privilege that is overwhelmingly less welcoming to women. Where there are problems that affect both genders, they should be tackled as that - treating a 'loud people' versus 'quiet people' problem as a male privilege problem is unbelievably problematic since it plays into the 'women just can't cope with men being honest' bullshit, and ignores the fact that men can be quiet and women can be loud. This devalues women's contributions and effectively silences discourse about how to deal with quiet men and loud women (and in this tale the latter was a big part of the problem), and basically is a net negative for everybody except the loud men, thereby reinforcing gender role designations and privilege structures. > What you're describing as being a "blunt bastard" could very well come off as male-privileged locker room talk. And in that case, once again, I've failed at "remember who you're talking to". The manner in which I LART somebody if it's necessary is tailored to the person, because people are all different. > The point is, in the lean management organization you don't really have someone to take you aside and tell you to stop being a dick. Given that Shadowcat has next to no hierarchy and yet we do have somebody - me - I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that except perhaps to say 'oh, bother' and disappear in a puff of logic.

by mst 13y ago

MartinCron 13y ago

This is not a gendered problem, this is a 'loud brash people' versus 'quieter nicer people' problem It's my hope that having a more diverse workplace will help the "quiet nice people" with and without Y chromosomes.

mst 13y ago
Diversity exists on many axis, and personality types are an important form of it just as much as gender is. I find your use of 'more diverse' to mean 'more gender balanced' distasteful, because privileging gender roles as important like that is a huge part of the problem.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  You misinterpret what I mean and find it distasteful? I am overcome with apathy.
  - mst 13y ago
    If that wasn't what you meant then your original comment could've been reduced to "I agree".

erikpukinskis 13y ago

I don't think it matters whether it was reported. Unless the founder gives his wife an explicit role and tells employees where he ends and she beings, it's fair to assume that low-level employees are going to assume he is fully aware of her interactions, and she is acting as his right hand. I realize that's a lot of assumptions, but that's why the founder needs to get out in front of these things and make them explicit.

mst 13y ago
I was addressing everything except the founder's wife problem; you're in the wrong thread.
- mst 13y ago
  The above was early morning crankiness but I really wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the other failures.

abalone 13y ago

The point is, in the lean management organization you don't really have someone to take you aside and tell you to stop being a dick. This is especially problematic when trying to overcome culturally calcified gender discrimination. What you're describing as being a "blunt bastard" could very well come off as male-privileged locker room talk. In the sports world there have been numerous attempts to contort locker room talk as somehow gender neutral, just a function of personality, some women talk that way, not all men do, and so forth. These arguments miss the forest for the trees: there does exist a culture of male privilege that is overwhelmingly less welcoming to women.

theorique 13y ago
But how do we distinguish between this possibility, and the possibility that we are treating women as delicate flowers who can't deal with 'bad words' or blunt criticism? In the Victorian era, until relatively recent times, men were expected to refrain from swearing or discussing 'serious' subjects such as war or politics when 'ladies were present'. The usage (or not) of blunt words of criticism or profanity in informal company documents (e.g. code comments, pull requests) isn't necessarily a gendered thing. It speaks to the company's culture, but it nevertheless feels like a step backward to suggest the corporate equivalent of "gentlemen need to mind their language when ladies are around".
abalone 13y ago
theorique, it's like asking whether complimenting someone passing on the street is a nice sweet thing to do or outrageously sexist. You could come up with rationalizations either way. But it's ultimately about the environment that it creates and how women (or minorities) feel in it. And that's up to the women, not the dudes rationalizing the status quo.
mst 13y ago
> These arguments miss the forest for the trees: there does exist a culture of male privilege that is overwhelmingly less welcoming to women. Where there are problems that affect both genders, they should be tackled as that - treating a 'loud people' versus 'quiet people' problem as a male privilege problem is unbelievably problematic since it plays into the 'women just can't cope with men being honest' bullshit, and ignores the fact that men can be quiet and women can be loud. This devalues women's contributions and effectively silences discourse about how to deal with quiet men and loud women (and in this tale the latter was a big part of the problem), and basically is a net negative for everybody except the loud men, thereby reinforcing gender role designations and privilege structures. > What you're describing as being a "blunt bastard" could very well come off as male-privileged locker room talk. And in that case, once again, I've failed at "remember who you're talking to". The manner in which I LART somebody if it's necessary is tailored to the person, because people are all different. > The point is, in the lean management organization you don't really have someone to take you aside and tell you to stop being a dick. Given that Shadowcat has next to no hierarchy and yet we do have somebody - me - I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that except perhaps to say 'oh, bother' and disappear in a puff of logic.