6 ms·

I think you hit the nail on the head and this is really region specific. There was a mall next to me when I was growing up and it was dingy, just poorly mainta

by maratd 13y ago

I think you hit the nail on the head and this is really region specific. There was a mall next to me when I was growing up and it was dingy, just poorly maintained. Then the area became hot, Whole Foods moved in. Then Target. Then a bevy of smaller upscale retailers. Now that dingy mall is unrecognizable and filled to the brim. Not a single vacancy. Not a single open parking spot either. Malls aren't dying. Some malls are, but that has nothing to do with the mall paradigm and has more to do with the local population. A mall can't get up and move. It's like a tree. It is where it is and it either thrives or dies.

leoc 13y ago
It would be interesting to see some numbers: total in-use square footage in out-of-town malls over time and so on. That would give a better idea as to whether there's an overall trend or not. It's hard to imagine that the Web hasn't caused an overall decline, though.
greghinch 13y ago
> Malls aren't dying. Some malls are, but that has nothing to do with the mall paradigm and has more to do with the local population. A mall can't get up and move. It's like a tree. It is where it is and it either thrives or dies. I would argue this is exactly why malls are dying, that they can't keep up with more and more rapidly evolving socio-economic trends and shifting demographics across geographies. Another byproduct of globalization and technology-driven streamlining of commerce
- EpicEng 13y ago
  Ehhh... it really depends on where the mall is located. Back home (podunk Rockford IL) malls are indeed dying. They are dilapidated and/or ghost towns. Ten years ago this was not the case. Where I currently live (La Jolla CA) the opposite is true. Of course, the malls are filled with stores like Saks, Nordstrom, a Tesla show floor, etc. These places are packed. I know I'm not going to buy a $1200+ jacket online any time soon, so I go to the mall for high end stuff.
  - greghinch 13y ago
    Right, malls are dying in certain areas and flourishing in others. As demographic shifts continue to happen across geographies (and those shifts only seem to be increasing), the very concept of a stationary location of offline commerce ceases to be flexible enough. I don't discount the fact that many or all people would want to try on a $1200 jacket before buying it; simply that the retail model that will thrive in the coming decades involves much greater mobility than a static large shopping center can provide.
  - mjn 13y ago
    Houston is a weird mix of both, perhaps as a result of its impressive sprawl. There are dozens of abandoned malls, and dozens of thriving ones. Perhaps land is so cheap that it's just easier to build a new one than to renovate an older one. Gives a weird feeling: by the numbers Houston's economy is booming, but experientially it feels sort of post-industrial, with abandoned properties dotting the landscape.
    - armenarmen 13y ago
      Houston still weirds me out this way. I stayed in a warehouse near Dynamo for a year or so, in one direction it was a dystopian hell hole and in the other a booming-soon-to-be-hip area. I think that our lack of zoning laws makes this cycle even stranger compared to the rest of the country.
      - Rude 13y ago
        Thunderdome?
  - iyulaev 13y ago
    Not sure how long you've lived there but the mall I think you're referring to (utc) was remodeled not long ago. The clientele in the area has gotten more upscale and the re-design and new stores (upscale restaurants, tesla, etc) reflects on this. Fwiw based on trying to go there for lunch, foot traffic has never been better.
- asharpe 13y ago
  Having worked for a major mall owner many years ago, this is the primary reason why malls 'fail' and was completely omitted by the article. Shifting demographics affect Malls in both ways: the design and build of a Mall serving a low socio-economic area is significantly different from 'A-Class' Malls as they are now known. Where I worked, they had taken a multi year (decade actually) play to purchase two older malls in socio-economic areas that were trending down. They then acquired the land only a short distance (relatively) in a burgeoning new upmarket area and was able to build a new Class A mall (without objections from the other malls ... that they already owned). They then migrated the higher end stores to the new mall and began to close one of the old malls (and were actually able to sell them off!!!). This is evolution, not the death of Malls.
- sAuronas 13y ago
  >Malls aren't dying. Cities are. Certain "rustbelt" cities and towns to be more specific. The malls that die are invariably in areas of decline. Caruso may be shifting the game with his paradigm of outdoor faux townscapes [sic] but he is making malls that do not look like malls with the same single ownership structure--and this is the real problem: single entities developing millions of square feet, risking lots of capital and building as cheaply as possible because of the risk. He's just using modern design methods to emmulate old downtowns, as anachronistic as that may seem. But the style is just that. Style. He does not build in places like Matteson, IL, for example because Lincoln Mall in Matteson is dying due to demographic trends (mostly white flight) and the thriving of another ...mall of the same - style - and vintage but with a shinny Apple store. Places like Matteson are unlucky because other malls in and around the Chicagoland are doing quite fine despite their tired, mid-century-gray motifs. In places like Chicago where the weather is miserable most of the time winter and summer (IMHO), indoor malls still make a lot of sense. The "Gold Coast" downtown does well because it's a tourist attraction in one a wealthy zip code. But when it's 34-below an indoor mall is a nice respite. Perhaps I am just venting because my thesis was on these greyfield malls and how to save them without starting from scratch or following the next trend in retail development because many places do not have the luxury to start fresh. Mall typologies are like hairstyles: you may not like afros, comb-overs or mullets, but each one had its day and will have its wearer and they are all here to stay. It's just a matter of how you maintain them.
Spooky23 13y ago
Great point. The article's example of the Apple store as a model of a retailer that "just plunks a glass cube on busy shopping streets" is pretty clueless. Most Apple stores are in malls! I think the issue with Malls is that in 1980-something, your choices were dying downtowns, department stores or the Sears/LL Bean/whatever catalog. For food it was local places, McDonalds/Burger King/Wendy's. The mall offered more choice for food and retail. Nowadays, the traditional mall retailers are all consolidated and offer similar stuff. Why hang out in a food court when you have a dozen fast casual restaurant choices outside the mall?
- pimlottc 13y ago
  > Most Apple stores are in malls! Are they? Do you have data on that? I am by no means an expert on Apple stores but of the ones I've seen, only one was in a traditional enclosed mall.
  - mortenjorck 13y ago
    In my experience, Apple stores are freestanding in dense urban centers, and located in shopping malls in suburban areas. I haven't seen any exceptions to this rule so far.
    - PakG1 13y ago
      That's interesting, I've never seen a single freestanding Apple store before.
      - zachrose 13y ago
        Yeah, is there one on the west coast? I know Seattle and Portland's Apple Stores are all in malls.
        bronson 13y ago
        Freestanding stores are in Palo Alto, Los Gatos, and two in San Francisco. Just the ones I know offhand.

by maratd 13y ago

leoc 13y ago

It would be interesting to see some numbers: total in-use square footage in out-of-town malls over time and so on. That would give a better idea as to whether there's an overall trend or not. It's hard to imagine that the Web hasn't caused an overall decline, though.

greghinch 13y ago

> Malls aren't dying. Some malls are, but that has nothing to do with the mall paradigm and has more to do with the local population. A mall can't get up and move. It's like a tree. It is where it is and it either thrives or dies. I would argue this is exactly why malls are dying, that they can't keep up with more and more rapidly evolving socio-economic trends and shifting demographics across geographies. Another byproduct of globalization and technology-driven streamlining of commerce

EpicEng 13y ago
Ehhh... it really depends on where the mall is located. Back home (podunk Rockford IL) malls are indeed dying. They are dilapidated and/or ghost towns. Ten years ago this was not the case. Where I currently live (La Jolla CA) the opposite is true. Of course, the malls are filled with stores like Saks, Nordstrom, a Tesla show floor, etc. These places are packed. I know I'm not going to buy a $1200+ jacket online any time soon, so I go to the mall for high end stuff.
- greghinch 13y ago
  Right, malls are dying in certain areas and flourishing in others. As demographic shifts continue to happen across geographies (and those shifts only seem to be increasing), the very concept of a stationary location of offline commerce ceases to be flexible enough. I don't discount the fact that many or all people would want to try on a $1200 jacket before buying it; simply that the retail model that will thrive in the coming decades involves much greater mobility than a static large shopping center can provide.
- mjn 13y ago
  Houston is a weird mix of both, perhaps as a result of its impressive sprawl. There are dozens of abandoned malls, and dozens of thriving ones. Perhaps land is so cheap that it's just easier to build a new one than to renovate an older one. Gives a weird feeling: by the numbers Houston's economy is booming, but experientially it feels sort of post-industrial, with abandoned properties dotting the landscape.
  - armenarmen 13y ago
    Houston still weirds me out this way. I stayed in a warehouse near Dynamo for a year or so, in one direction it was a dystopian hell hole and in the other a booming-soon-to-be-hip area. I think that our lack of zoning laws makes this cycle even stranger compared to the rest of the country.
    - Rude 13y ago
      Thunderdome?
- iyulaev 13y ago
  Not sure how long you've lived there but the mall I think you're referring to (utc) was remodeled not long ago. The clientele in the area has gotten more upscale and the re-design and new stores (upscale restaurants, tesla, etc) reflects on this. Fwiw based on trying to go there for lunch, foot traffic has never been better.
asharpe 13y ago
Having worked for a major mall owner many years ago, this is the primary reason why malls 'fail' and was completely omitted by the article. Shifting demographics affect Malls in both ways: the design and build of a Mall serving a low socio-economic area is significantly different from 'A-Class' Malls as they are now known. Where I worked, they had taken a multi year (decade actually) play to purchase two older malls in socio-economic areas that were trending down. They then acquired the land only a short distance (relatively) in a burgeoning new upmarket area and was able to build a new Class A mall (without objections from the other malls ... that they already owned). They then migrated the higher end stores to the new mall and began to close one of the old malls (and were actually able to sell them off!!!). This is evolution, not the death of Malls.
sAuronas 13y ago
>Malls aren't dying. Cities are. Certain "rustbelt" cities and towns to be more specific. The malls that die are invariably in areas of decline. Caruso may be shifting the game with his paradigm of outdoor faux townscapes [sic] but he is making malls that do not look like malls with the same single ownership structure--and this is the real problem: single entities developing millions of square feet, risking lots of capital and building as cheaply as possible because of the risk. He's just using modern design methods to emmulate old downtowns, as anachronistic as that may seem. But the style is just that. Style. He does not build in places like Matteson, IL, for example because Lincoln Mall in Matteson is dying due to demographic trends (mostly white flight) and the thriving of another ...mall of the same - style - and vintage but with a shinny Apple store. Places like Matteson are unlucky because other malls in and around the Chicagoland are doing quite fine despite their tired, mid-century-gray motifs. In places like Chicago where the weather is miserable most of the time winter and summer (IMHO), indoor malls still make a lot of sense. The "Gold Coast" downtown does well because it's a tourist attraction in one a wealthy zip code. But when it's 34-below an indoor mall is a nice respite. Perhaps I am just venting because my thesis was on these greyfield malls and how to save them without starting from scratch or following the next trend in retail development because many places do not have the luxury to start fresh. Mall typologies are like hairstyles: you may not like afros, comb-overs or mullets, but each one had its day and will have its wearer and they are all here to stay. It's just a matter of how you maintain them.

Spooky23 13y ago

Great point. The article's example of the Apple store as a model of a retailer that "just plunks a glass cube on busy shopping streets" is pretty clueless. Most Apple stores are in malls! I think the issue with Malls is that in 1980-something, your choices were dying downtowns, department stores or the Sears/LL Bean/whatever catalog. For food it was local places, McDonalds/Burger King/Wendy's. The mall offered more choice for food and retail. Nowadays, the traditional mall retailers are all consolidated and offer similar stuff. Why hang out in a food court when you have a dozen fast casual restaurant choices outside the mall?

pimlottc 13y ago
> Most Apple stores are in malls! Are they? Do you have data on that? I am by no means an expert on Apple stores but of the ones I've seen, only one was in a traditional enclosed mall.
- mortenjorck 13y ago
  In my experience, Apple stores are freestanding in dense urban centers, and located in shopping malls in suburban areas. I haven't seen any exceptions to this rule so far.
  - PakG1 13y ago
    That's interesting, I've never seen a single freestanding Apple store before.
    - zachrose 13y ago
      Yeah, is there one on the west coast? I know Seattle and Portland's Apple Stores are all in malls.
      - bronson 13y ago
        Freestanding stores are in Palo Alto, Los Gatos, and two in San Francisco. Just the ones I know offhand.