4 ms·

I think it's really a huge stretch to go from oogling of hula hoopers to "feeling unsafe". What, after watching some women do hoola hoop men suddenly turn into

I think it's really a huge stretch to go from oogling of hula hoopers to "feeling unsafe". What, after watching some women do hoola hoop men suddenly turn into rapists? That's 100% in her head and sounds slightly crazy to me, to be honest. Not even going to strip clubs turns men into rapists on a regular basis... I think that accusation is completely unwarranted (from the sounds of it).

dclowd9901 13y ago
After reading the article, it became pretty clear to me that whatever manner of "culture" github appears to be permeating internally, she was very far from it. This indicates she was a bad hire from the get-go. Hiring isn't just about talent, it's also about cultural fit, and while it's difficult to know with precision who fits a cultural dynamic, 1) such an issue is bound to arise as a company grows and 2) there had to be indications that she was incredibly sensitive early on.
- r0muald 13y ago
  Apparently they were as excited to have her onboard as with any other new hire at the time: https://github.com/blog/1082-julie-ann-horvath-is-a-githubber https://github.com/blog/1082-julie-ann-horvath-is-a-githubbe...
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    What's the point? Presumably they make similar announcements for many new hires, although I have to wonder if those are illustrated by such pore-stretchingly enormous head photos.
    - r0muald 13y ago
      Actually, announcements have since become less cliché - or from another perspective they are now based on a IMHO silly we-are-a-happy-company cliché (including GIFs).
- muglug 13y ago
  Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? And that any work culture where one's gender matters is a toxic culture in itself? A workplace just filled with happy young male developers is not necessarily a healthy environment, or one that necessarily has a good culture.
  - czzarr 13y ago
    Define good culture. Why would you assume to know what a good culture is? Why would a workplace filled with happy young males be necessarily a bad culture?
    - muglug 13y ago
      > Why would a workplace filled with happy young males be necessarily a bad culture? That's not what I said.
  - tomp 13y ago
    > Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? It is, but the point a lot of people are making here is that maybe she sees the situation in a wrong way, as her perspective is a reflection of her gender, so she cannot really judge if the problems happened primarily because of her gender. Actually, the fact that the other female employees felt secure and relaxed enough that they were hola-hooping in the office suggests otherwise. > A workplace just filled with happy young male developers is not necessarily a healthy environment, or one that necessarily has a good culture. It's also not necessarily an unhealthy/toxic environment.
    - muglug 13y ago
      > Actually, the fact that the other female employees felt secure and relaxed enough that they were hola-hooping in the office suggests otherwise. No it doesn't, really. There can still be a problem, even if it's easier to ignore it than to cause a fuss and risk your career. > It's also not necessarily an unhealthy/toxic environment Absolutely agree - but if, when you add a female developer, there is hostility towards her that appears to be motivated in part by her gender, then one should revise one's opinion of the "healthiness" of that environment. Obviously this is one person's account and, absent a response from GitHub, it will stay that way. Nevertheless, I'm sorry that she felt victimised, and I think her account is a useful vantage point from which to discuss issues of "cultural fit" in all-male teams.
- bsder 13y ago
  This bothered me the most: > Despite its generally female-friendly environment, Horvath claims: “I had a really hard time getting used to the culture, the aggressive communication on pull requests and how little the men I worked with respected and valued my opinion.” What? Um, you're the new hire. Demonstrating your worth is a standard phase that even men go through. If the pull request communication is too aggressive, tough. The company does not owe you a change of culture. Overall, the environment strikes me as not terribly friendly. Okay. That's a culture misfit. Big time. But why would you stay? Why would you recommend this to other women when you were having such a hard time yourself? Jesus, I won't recommend companies or people unless I've got a really clear idea that there is a really good fit. It's like being a personal matchmaker, there's not a lot of upside and there is a lot of downside.
greenrd 13y ago
If her problem with it was that some random other guy openly finding some random other girl attractive in her workplace "makes her feel unsafe", then that would be highly hypocritical, as she admits she was dating a coworker and that other coworkers knew this, which can only encourage others to think it's OK to make romantic advances to coworkers. I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you think men and women should always without exception be only cold and businesslike towards each other in your workplace, then don't date a coworker. Isn't that obvious?
- achompas 13y ago
  I believe the article mentions how she started dating the coworker before joining Github. Even if she started dating him after she joined, you need to take the whole thing in context. The founder's wife is attempting to inject herself into their relationship, and a guy hits on her and punishes her for rejecting him. In context, the hula hooping episode can easily be a trigger for the allegedly sexist culture at GitHub.
- lnanek2 13y ago
  By the way they kept saying partner I was under the impression she was dating a woman. In which case she could theoretically hate males looking at women and still date a woman on the team.
  - MarkTee 13y ago
    That's what I thought too, but there are a couple places where they refer to him as a "he". "Horvath later learned that the founder had a similar talk with her partner and demanded that he resign."
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    Okay, I am - for better or worse - not always known for my progressive views. But really, you're pulling the 'man-hating dyke' card here?
cossatot 13y ago
Something that has become clear to me fairly late in life is how sensitive many women are to feeling sexually threatened, and I've noticed this even in my wife, who is an incredibly adventurous person (e.g. she has lead multiple months-long geological expeditions in Tibet where she is both the only woman and the only Westerner). I think it's a brain-stem type reaction, not a rational one, but once people begin to feel deep-seated fear, there's not a lot that can make it go away. Although I agree that in many cases, such as this one by the sounds of it (limited information, though), there may be a very low degree of physical danger, I think it is best just to realize/accept that women have a deep-seated fear of sexual, physical and emotional aggression that many men do not have, and adjust one's behavior and expectations accordingly to try to make women feel a little safer. It's pretty rare that this causes any actual inconvenience, other than like not sharing a hotel room on a business trip.
- gress 13y ago
  If it's actually a conditioned response, from experiencing a lot of unwanted attention from men over time, treating it as a 'brain stem' reaction will only prevent society from resolving the problem. Women will forever be afraid of men, and men will forever be cast as bad.
- dcre 13y ago
  I don't think it's a "sexual threat." I think it's more that we're only a couple of decades out (less in some places) from office women mostly being for typing and for looking at. Women being watched hula-hooping just feels regressive.

dclowd9901 13y ago

After reading the article, it became pretty clear to me that whatever manner of "culture" github appears to be permeating internally, she was very far from it. This indicates she was a bad hire from the get-go. Hiring isn't just about talent, it's also about cultural fit, and while it's difficult to know with precision who fits a cultural dynamic, 1) such an issue is bound to arise as a company grows and 2) there had to be indications that she was incredibly sensitive early on.

r0muald 13y ago
Apparently they were as excited to have her onboard as with any other new hire at the time: https://github.com/blog/1082-julie-ann-horvath-is-a-githubber https://github.com/blog/1082-julie-ann-horvath-is-a-githubbe...
- jessaustin 13y ago
  What's the point? Presumably they make similar announcements for many new hires, although I have to wonder if those are illustrated by such pore-stretchingly enormous head photos.
  - r0muald 13y ago
    Actually, announcements have since become less cliché - or from another perspective they are now based on a IMHO silly we-are-a-happy-company cliché (including GIFs).
muglug 13y ago
Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? And that any work culture where one's gender matters is a toxic culture in itself? A workplace just filled with happy young male developers is not necessarily a healthy environment, or one that necessarily has a good culture.
- czzarr 13y ago
  Define good culture. Why would you assume to know what a good culture is? Why would a workplace filled with happy young males be necessarily a bad culture?
  - muglug 13y ago
    > Why would a workplace filled with happy young males be necessarily a bad culture? That's not what I said.
- tomp 13y ago
  > Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? It is, but the point a lot of people are making here is that maybe she sees the situation in a wrong way, as her perspective is a reflection of her gender, so she cannot really judge if the problems happened primarily because of her gender. Actually, the fact that the other female employees felt secure and relaxed enough that they were hola-hooping in the office suggests otherwise. > A workplace just filled with happy young male developers is not necessarily a healthy environment, or one that necessarily has a good culture. It's also not necessarily an unhealthy/toxic environment.
  - muglug 13y ago
    > Actually, the fact that the other female employees felt secure and relaxed enough that they were hola-hooping in the office suggests otherwise. No it doesn't, really. There can still be a problem, even if it's easier to ignore it than to cause a fuss and risk your career. > It's also not necessarily an unhealthy/toxic environment Absolutely agree - but if, when you add a female developer, there is hostility towards her that appears to be motivated in part by her gender, then one should revise one's opinion of the "healthiness" of that environment. Obviously this is one person's account and, absent a response from GitHub, it will stay that way. Nevertheless, I'm sorry that she felt victimised, and I think her account is a useful vantage point from which to discuss issues of "cultural fit" in all-male teams.
bsder 13y ago
This bothered me the most: > Despite its generally female-friendly environment, Horvath claims: “I had a really hard time getting used to the culture, the aggressive communication on pull requests and how little the men I worked with respected and valued my opinion.” What? Um, you're the new hire. Demonstrating your worth is a standard phase that even men go through. If the pull request communication is too aggressive, tough. The company does not owe you a change of culture. Overall, the environment strikes me as not terribly friendly. Okay. That's a culture misfit. Big time. But why would you stay? Why would you recommend this to other women when you were having such a hard time yourself? Jesus, I won't recommend companies or people unless I've got a really clear idea that there is a really good fit. It's like being a personal matchmaker, there's not a lot of upside and there is a lot of downside.

greenrd 13y ago

If her problem with it was that some random other guy openly finding some random other girl attractive in her workplace "makes her feel unsafe", then that would be highly hypocritical, as she admits she was dating a coworker and that other coworkers knew this, which can only encourage others to think it's OK to make romantic advances to coworkers. I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you think men and women should always without exception be only cold and businesslike towards each other in your workplace, then don't date a coworker. Isn't that obvious?

achompas 13y ago
I believe the article mentions how she started dating the coworker before joining Github. Even if she started dating him after she joined, you need to take the whole thing in context. The founder's wife is attempting to inject herself into their relationship, and a guy hits on her and punishes her for rejecting him. In context, the hula hooping episode can easily be a trigger for the allegedly sexist culture at GitHub.
lnanek2 13y ago
By the way they kept saying partner I was under the impression she was dating a woman. In which case she could theoretically hate males looking at women and still date a woman on the team.
- MarkTee 13y ago
  That's what I thought too, but there are a couple places where they refer to him as a "he". "Horvath later learned that the founder had a similar talk with her partner and demanded that he resign."
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  Okay, I am - for better or worse - not always known for my progressive views. But really, you're pulling the 'man-hating dyke' card here?

cossatot 13y ago

Something that has become clear to me fairly late in life is how sensitive many women are to feeling sexually threatened, and I've noticed this even in my wife, who is an incredibly adventurous person (e.g. she has lead multiple months-long geological expeditions in Tibet where she is both the only woman and the only Westerner). I think it's a brain-stem type reaction, not a rational one, but once people begin to feel deep-seated fear, there's not a lot that can make it go away. Although I agree that in many cases, such as this one by the sounds of it (limited information, though), there may be a very low degree of physical danger, I think it is best just to realize/accept that women have a deep-seated fear of sexual, physical and emotional aggression that many men do not have, and adjust one's behavior and expectations accordingly to try to make women feel a little safer. It's pretty rare that this causes any actual inconvenience, other than like not sharing a hotel room on a business trip.

gress 13y ago
If it's actually a conditioned response, from experiencing a lot of unwanted attention from men over time, treating it as a 'brain stem' reaction will only prevent society from resolving the problem. Women will forever be afraid of men, and men will forever be cast as bad.
dcre 13y ago
I don't think it's a "sexual threat." I think it's more that we're only a couple of decades out (less in some places) from office women mostly being for typing and for looking at. Women being watched hula-hooping just feels regressive.