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It may well be that the greatest damage to GitHub here is not on the issue of sexism so much as their advocacy of lean management and organizational "freedom".

by abalone 13y ago

It may well be that the greatest damage to GitHub here is not on the issue of sexism so much as their advocacy of lean management and organizational "freedom". Although it may have sounded like the "cool teacher" way to address things by having your wife take an employee out for drinks to discuss grievances, clearly this should have been handled in a professional setting according to a clear grievance process. That could have led directly to policy changes (e.g. keep pull request comments professional, have management review reverts) and nipped the problem in the bud instead of getting Really Fucking Weird. That goes for any grievances against her as well, instead of being vented on Secret. Even GitHub's VC backer (A16Z) has blogged about the need to have clear process when it comes to HR stuff.

pron 13y ago
Apparently, organizational freedom for a bunch of young guys tends to breed sexism and abuse. I've always thought there's trouble ahead for a company whose blog is mostly a drinking journal (although this appears to no longer be the case).
- Xylakant 13y ago
  I've seen similar fallouts in a strictly hierarchical organization when one of the leading managers started having an affair with one of the lower rank project management trainees. HR was powerless, since the manager outranked them. Project management was powerless since the now-de-facto promoted trainee was backed by their superior. In the end, the developers revolted and threatened to quit, so the owner personally had to resolve the conflict. [1] To me, the story sounds of a critical failure in some decision making positions, something that happens over and over and over again every day, we just don't get to hear it. [1] The trainee was forced to leave, for all that are curious.
  - sillysaurus3 13y ago
    The manager was allowed to stay?
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      Yes. Atmosphere in the company was pretty toxic after that event.
      - nailer 13y ago
        Why did the developers 'revolt'? People shouldn't date at the workplace but it seems like there's something missing here.
        Xylakant 13y ago
        Valid question, so I'll elaborate a little: Imagine a trainee project manager without formal CS education that is immune to professional criticism by other managers, because she gets told by the boss (and lover) that she's doing perfectly fine and all other are just jealous for the de-facto promotion. This, flanked by threats to everybody that would voice criticism towards her makes for a very bad situation. She received responsibility for a team with a task that would be enough for a seasoned manager and she failed hard - not because she was stupid, but because she never had a chance. All blame for any failure was directed to the developers, so at some point they revolted.
        nailer 13y ago
        That makes perfect sense. I guess when I imagine a realtionship I assume the couple is smart enough to know that discipline etc is outside the bounds of their relationship, eg, the senior partner won't help the junior partner because they know it will ultimately fuck up both the the company and the relationship. Thinking about it, assuming everyone knows that is naive. Point conceded.
  - hyperpape 13y ago
    "HR was powerless, since the manager outranked them." That right there is a scary sentence. Sure, HR shouldn't dictate everything (hiring developers, for example) but No one should be exempt from rules about how to treat other employees.
this_user 13y ago
An organisation without management basically relies on having people who all act rationally all the time and in the best interest of the company as a whole. The problem is that not many people like that exist and can be recruited. For a sufficiently small organisation peer pressure and a clear-cut common goal may help smooth over the imperfections of the individuals involved. But once the organisation grows to a certain level, those forces will start losing their effectiveness and you require a substitute to ensure reasonably smooth operations. I think the key take away is that there is no perfect organisational structure. All you can do is to find a structure that works best for the current situation, but you need to be prepared to make changes if your organisation's current stage of development requires it.
mst 13y ago
> keep pull request comments professional Actually, this struck me as purely a "remember who you're talking to" problem - the team were used to a more aggressive level of language than the new hire was, so what should've happened is that the team should've learned to make the same strength of point with less aggressive words and the new hire should've worked to take aggressive words less to heart. Being as I'm a blunt bastard, I've been through this a fair few times with employees and contributors. This is not a gendered problem, this is a 'loud brash people' versus 'quieter nicer people' problem. The reason people try and make it gendered is because, at least on average from the people I've worked with, women are more likely to be 'quieter nicer people' - but the truth, honestly, is that rather than anti-women this is a 'no structured group exists to stand up for the quieter nicer men so they go unnoticed' situation. I've had to unpick these issues with all combinations of people. > have management review reverts Actually, just having a manager take him aside and say "dude, you're being a dick and either you stop it right fucking now or there will be consequences that you're really not going to enjoy" should be sufficient. Shadowcat is a relatively flat org but we have just enough hierarchy that there are people who can absolutely do that. Sadly, the article goes back to the founder's wife problem (which, omgwtf, but that's been analyzed to death upthread) so we don't know whether it was reported (of course, dependending on who she'd've needed to report it to, that may've been difficult ...)
- MartinCron 13y ago
  This is not a gendered problem, this is a 'loud brash people' versus 'quieter nicer people' problem It's my hope that having a more diverse workplace will help the "quiet nice people" with and without Y chromosomes.
  - mst 13y ago
    Diversity exists on many axis, and personality types are an important form of it just as much as gender is. I find your use of 'more diverse' to mean 'more gender balanced' distasteful, because privileging gender roles as important like that is a huge part of the problem.
    - 13y ago

by abalone 13y ago

pron 13y ago

Apparently, organizational freedom for a bunch of young guys tends to breed sexism and abuse. I've always thought there's trouble ahead for a company whose blog is mostly a drinking journal (although this appears to no longer be the case).

Xylakant 13y ago
I've seen similar fallouts in a strictly hierarchical organization when one of the leading managers started having an affair with one of the lower rank project management trainees. HR was powerless, since the manager outranked them. Project management was powerless since the now-de-facto promoted trainee was backed by their superior. In the end, the developers revolted and threatened to quit, so the owner personally had to resolve the conflict. [1] To me, the story sounds of a critical failure in some decision making positions, something that happens over and over and over again every day, we just don't get to hear it. [1] The trainee was forced to leave, for all that are curious.
- sillysaurus3 13y ago
  The manager was allowed to stay?
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    Yes. Atmosphere in the company was pretty toxic after that event.
    - nailer 13y ago
      Why did the developers 'revolt'? People shouldn't date at the workplace but it seems like there's something missing here.
      - Xylakant 13y ago
        Valid question, so I'll elaborate a little: Imagine a trainee project manager without formal CS education that is immune to professional criticism by other managers, because she gets told by the boss (and lover) that she's doing perfectly fine and all other are just jealous for the de-facto promotion. This, flanked by threats to everybody that would voice criticism towards her makes for a very bad situation. She received responsibility for a team with a task that would be enough for a seasoned manager and she failed hard - not because she was stupid, but because she never had a chance. All blame for any failure was directed to the developers, so at some point they revolted.
        nailer 13y ago
        That makes perfect sense. I guess when I imagine a realtionship I assume the couple is smart enough to know that discipline etc is outside the bounds of their relationship, eg, the senior partner won't help the junior partner because they know it will ultimately fuck up both the the company and the relationship. Thinking about it, assuming everyone knows that is naive. Point conceded.
- hyperpape 13y ago
  "HR was powerless, since the manager outranked them." That right there is a scary sentence. Sure, HR shouldn't dictate everything (hiring developers, for example) but No one should be exempt from rules about how to treat other employees.

this_user 13y ago

An organisation without management basically relies on having people who all act rationally all the time and in the best interest of the company as a whole. The problem is that not many people like that exist and can be recruited. For a sufficiently small organisation peer pressure and a clear-cut common goal may help smooth over the imperfections of the individuals involved. But once the organisation grows to a certain level, those forces will start losing their effectiveness and you require a substitute to ensure reasonably smooth operations. I think the key take away is that there is no perfect organisational structure. All you can do is to find a structure that works best for the current situation, but you need to be prepared to make changes if your organisation's current stage of development requires it.

mst 13y ago

> keep pull request comments professional Actually, this struck me as purely a "remember who you're talking to" problem - the team were used to a more aggressive level of language than the new hire was, so what should've happened is that the team should've learned to make the same strength of point with less aggressive words and the new hire should've worked to take aggressive words less to heart. Being as I'm a blunt bastard, I've been through this a fair few times with employees and contributors. This is not a gendered problem, this is a 'loud brash people' versus 'quieter nicer people' problem. The reason people try and make it gendered is because, at least on average from the people I've worked with, women are more likely to be 'quieter nicer people' - but the truth, honestly, is that rather than anti-women this is a 'no structured group exists to stand up for the quieter nicer men so they go unnoticed' situation. I've had to unpick these issues with all combinations of people. > have management review reverts Actually, just having a manager take him aside and say "dude, you're being a dick and either you stop it right fucking now or there will be consequences that you're really not going to enjoy" should be sufficient. Shadowcat is a relatively flat org but we have just enough hierarchy that there are people who can absolutely do that. Sadly, the article goes back to the founder's wife problem (which, omgwtf, but that's been analyzed to death upthread) so we don't know whether it was reported (of course, dependending on who she'd've needed to report it to, that may've been difficult ...)

MartinCron 13y ago
This is not a gendered problem, this is a 'loud brash people' versus 'quieter nicer people' problem It's my hope that having a more diverse workplace will help the "quiet nice people" with and without Y chromosomes.
- mst 13y ago
  Diversity exists on many axis, and personality types are an important form of it just as much as gender is. I find your use of 'more diverse' to mean 'more gender balanced' distasteful, because privileging gender roles as important like that is a huge part of the problem.
  - 13y ago