4 ms·

Which is why you shouldn't participate in it? I realize there are serious societal pressures to conform and be part of that 'old boys club'. But that is exactl

Which is why you shouldn't participate in it? I realize there are serious societal pressures to conform and be part of that 'old boys club'. But that is exactly the problem, your support of it (even if mostly implicit by merely being present, is made explicit when you laugh along with the sexist jokes or nod in agreement) is what perpetuates your male privilege. I have a lot of privilege too, so I'm not talking from some theoretical moral high ground of being less privileged than you. But I try not to participate. It's one of the hardest things to stand up to society and your peers. But next time, try walking away. It isn't as good as telling the others why they are being bigoted, but it's better than contributing. And I realize that isn't always possible. But the next time you get a job, or promotion, and you get that 'old boys club' vibe. Realize that someone else might have gotten that if they had been male (or white, or straight, or Christian, or American, or ...).

tomp 13y ago
> But that is exactly the problem, your support of it (even if mostly implicit by merely being present, is made explicit when you laugh along with the sexist jokes or nod in agreement) is what perpetuates your male privilege. The choice, for me and him and maybe other people (men included) is very simple: we can either accept reality, conform to the "old boy's club" (you call that "supporting it"), and progress in our careers, or fight moral battles we cannot win and stagnate professionally or even be fired. It's easy to take the moral high ground from a position of power, but from a position of a young male, it's not very wise. Personally, I find that all great employees I've worked with have also been great people, so I haven't had this problem myself. But I think that your position is not the most reasonable.
- SolarNet 13y ago
  Did you not read what I said? Conforming is supporting it! It's a hard choice to not to, but it is still a choice to conform. So it may hurt your career. Many people don't have careers to advance because of the assholes you are "conforming" with. And so you perpetuate it. Well done! So brave! And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money.
  - tomp 13y ago
    > Did you not read what I said? Have you? > And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money. And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. Sorry, but I don't think your demands are reasonable. I'd rather make the most money I can (without abusing others), and help others when I'm already in power. Speaking of morality and supporting the evil status quo, how many loafs of bread did you throw away this year (while people in India are starving), how many Chinese T-shirts have you bought (while the child workers making them are worked to death), how many times did you not donate your hard-earned money (while the children in Africa are dying of malaria), how many times did you not protest while your government's agents were abroad, killing "terrorists" and their children without any judicial (or any other) oversight? Morality is a bitch.
    - SolarNet 13y ago
      > And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. It's great that you may one day be powerful enough to help with equality. But in the meantime you are going to be fine with gaining that power by abusing your privilege? How's that equality coming along then? Doing the right thing isn't a fucking cost/benefit analysis. What you (apparently) participate in is the fucking problem [0]. The next time you think, 'why aren't there more women in tech', go look in a fucking mirror. > Morality is a bitch. Yes but I at least protest those things. And I do volunteer, and donate. Apparently because the world is horrible we can all just be passive about the injustices we can fix. Go fuck yourself. [0] http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit_Technology http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit...
      - tomp 13y ago
        I'm going to ignore your insulting tone... :/ > But in the meantime you are going to be fine with gaining that power by abusing your privilege? What I had in mind (and I tried to communicate to you in the above post) is more that I will be using my privilege, not abusing it. If you find that objectionable, what else do you suggest? That I give my flat to the homeless guy, so that he will be forced to move out in a month because he won't afford the rent, just because I was lucky enough to learn programming while young and can make a good living now? That I move to India and use all my money to buy food for the poor and when it's gone starve along with them, just because I was lucky enough to be born in a first-world country? Maybe I misunderstood you, and you're only suggesting that I don't perpetuate inequal, discriminatory treatment towards others. If so, I totally agree with that and always try to do my best. If, however, you're suggesting that I should put myself, my family and my future at a disadvantage just so that I can fight some class war against unspecified enemies for an unspecified gain, I'm not going to do that. And even if I would, I would dedicate my resources to more serious problems than sex inequality in tech.

tomp 13y ago

> But that is exactly the problem, your support of it (even if mostly implicit by merely being present, is made explicit when you laugh along with the sexist jokes or nod in agreement) is what perpetuates your male privilege. The choice, for me and him and maybe other people (men included) is very simple: we can either accept reality, conform to the "old boy's club" (you call that "supporting it"), and progress in our careers, or fight moral battles we cannot win and stagnate professionally or even be fired. It's easy to take the moral high ground from a position of power, but from a position of a young male, it's not very wise. Personally, I find that all great employees I've worked with have also been great people, so I haven't had this problem myself. But I think that your position is not the most reasonable.

SolarNet 13y ago
Did you not read what I said? Conforming is supporting it! It's a hard choice to not to, but it is still a choice to conform. So it may hurt your career. Many people don't have careers to advance because of the assholes you are "conforming" with. And so you perpetuate it. Well done! So brave! And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money.
- tomp 13y ago
  > Did you not read what I said? Have you? > And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money. And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. Sorry, but I don't think your demands are reasonable. I'd rather make the most money I can (without abusing others), and help others when I'm already in power. Speaking of morality and supporting the evil status quo, how many loafs of bread did you throw away this year (while people in India are starving), how many Chinese T-shirts have you bought (while the child workers making them are worked to death), how many times did you not donate your hard-earned money (while the children in Africa are dying of malaria), how many times did you not protest while your government's agents were abroad, killing "terrorists" and their children without any judicial (or any other) oversight? Morality is a bitch.
  - SolarNet 13y ago
    > And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. It's great that you may one day be powerful enough to help with equality. But in the meantime you are going to be fine with gaining that power by abusing your privilege? How's that equality coming along then? Doing the right thing isn't a fucking cost/benefit analysis. What you (apparently) participate in is the fucking problem [0]. The next time you think, 'why aren't there more women in tech', go look in a fucking mirror. > Morality is a bitch. Yes but I at least protest those things. And I do volunteer, and donate. Apparently because the world is horrible we can all just be passive about the injustices we can fix. Go fuck yourself. [0] http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit_Technology http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit...
    - tomp 13y ago
      I'm going to ignore your insulting tone... :/ > But in the meantime you are going to be fine with gaining that power by abusing your privilege? What I had in mind (and I tried to communicate to you in the above post) is more that I will be using my privilege, not abusing it. If you find that objectionable, what else do you suggest? That I give my flat to the homeless guy, so that he will be forced to move out in a month because he won't afford the rent, just because I was lucky enough to learn programming while young and can make a good living now? That I move to India and use all my money to buy food for the poor and when it's gone starve along with them, just because I was lucky enough to be born in a first-world country? Maybe I misunderstood you, and you're only suggesting that I don't perpetuate inequal, discriminatory treatment towards others. If so, I totally agree with that and always try to do my best. If, however, you're suggesting that I should put myself, my family and my future at a disadvantage just so that I can fight some class war against unspecified enemies for an unspecified gain, I'm not going to do that. And even if I would, I would dedicate my resources to more serious problems than sex inequality in tech.