4 ms·

To be clear: I may be in the minority I'm a young male. Maybe too young to matter, but I do not, and I can't stress enough, I literally give no merit to the ge

by err4nt 13y ago

To be clear: I may be in the minority I'm a young male. Maybe too young to matter, but I do not, and I can't stress enough, I literally give no merit to the gender of my coworkers. I was I raised to treat everybody equal. In my family as well as in general society today, women are MORE highly educated on average than men. And that's a great thing! Men can act weird toward women at times, and men will never understand what that feels like. But I AM a man. Trust me when I say that women will never understand what it feels like when a man talks to a man in the absence of women. I know people can be dicks, they can be terrible, and that's across both genders, but there IS a 'straight man to straight man' dynamic that women will always be protected from that isn't terribly pleasant. TL;DR: The old boys club isn't fun for all boys, it's still only fun for the ones on top and that doesn't represent most of us.

SolarNet 13y ago
Which is why you shouldn't participate in it? I realize there are serious societal pressures to conform and be part of that 'old boys club'. But that is exactly the problem, your support of it (even if mostly implicit by merely being present, is made explicit when you laugh along with the sexist jokes or nod in agreement) is what perpetuates your male privilege. I have a lot of privilege too, so I'm not talking from some theoretical moral high ground of being less privileged than you. But I try not to participate. It's one of the hardest things to stand up to society and your peers. But next time, try walking away. It isn't as good as telling the others why they are being bigoted, but it's better than contributing. And I realize that isn't always possible. But the next time you get a job, or promotion, and you get that 'old boys club' vibe. Realize that someone else might have gotten that if they had been male (or white, or straight, or Christian, or American, or ...).
- tomp 13y ago
  > But that is exactly the problem, your support of it (even if mostly implicit by merely being present, is made explicit when you laugh along with the sexist jokes or nod in agreement) is what perpetuates your male privilege. The choice, for me and him and maybe other people (men included) is very simple: we can either accept reality, conform to the "old boy's club" (you call that "supporting it"), and progress in our careers, or fight moral battles we cannot win and stagnate professionally or even be fired. It's easy to take the moral high ground from a position of power, but from a position of a young male, it's not very wise. Personally, I find that all great employees I've worked with have also been great people, so I haven't had this problem myself. But I think that your position is not the most reasonable.
  - SolarNet 13y ago
    Did you not read what I said? Conforming is supporting it! It's a hard choice to not to, but it is still a choice to conform. So it may hurt your career. Many people don't have careers to advance because of the assholes you are "conforming" with. And so you perpetuate it. Well done! So brave! And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money.
    - tomp 13y ago
      > Did you not read what I said? Have you? > And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money. And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. Sorry, but I don't think your demands are reasonable. I'd rather make the most money I can (without abusing others), and help others when I'm already in power. Speaking of morality and supporting the evil status quo, how many loafs of bread did you throw away this year (while people in India are starving), how many Chinese T-shirts have you bought (while the child workers making them are worked to death), how many times did you not donate your hard-earned money (while the children in Africa are dying of malaria), how many times did you not protest while your government's agents were abroad, killing "terrorists" and their children without any judicial (or any other) oversight? Morality is a bitch.
      - SolarNet 13y ago
        > And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. It's great that you may one day be powerful enough to help with equality. But in the meantime you are going to be fine with gaining that power by abusing your privilege? How's that equality coming along then? Doing the right thing isn't a fucking cost/benefit analysis. What you (apparently) participate in is the fucking problem [0]. The next time you think, 'why aren't there more women in tech', go look in a fucking mirror. > Morality is a bitch. Yes but I at least protest those things. And I do volunteer, and donate. Apparently because the world is horrible we can all just be passive about the injustices we can fix. Go fuck yourself. [0] http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit_Technology http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit...
facepalm 13y ago
Unfortunately, should you ever be attracted to a female coworker, it will still be accounted for as sexism on your part.
- lilsunnybee 13y ago
  Only if you one-sidedly try to impose yourself on that person, without regards to their attraction to you. Flirt and ask someone out if they seem interested, but if they aren't, drop it. What is uncomfortable and makes for a really hostile work environment is advances and unwanted attention that can't be easily stopped.
  - facepalm 13y ago
    I think you underestimate how far things have already escalated. Even if you ask somebody out just once, chances are you are one of many and eventually you will be a data point in the "I was constantly being harassed" claim.
erikpukinskis 13y ago
I would normally try not to give advice, because I don't know you at all, but you flagged yourself as young, so I am throwing out a generic bit of advice. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't apply. You sound like a good person, aware of some things many your age are not. That's awesome and you should be proud. However, please be very careful with the idea that you "literally give no merit to the gender of [your] coworkers". Many of these behaviors are so subtle that they go completely unnoticed by everyone involved. Most of the truly overt forms of sexism became passé years ago. What's left is covert, and very pernicious. I have been working on trying to increase my awareness of sexism for about a decade now, and I still find myself doing and thinking sexist things every week. Your privilege is not something you can just lay down. It's a silent companion, (a "dark passenger" for the Dexter fans out there), that you will live with for the rest of your life. Being a good person means staying alert, keeping a little fear in your gut, listening charitably to the people around you, doing your homework, and trusting yourself and your community, day after day. OK, sorry if that verged a little into lecture territory. It really sounds like you're on the right path already.

by err4nt 13y ago

SolarNet 13y ago

Which is why you shouldn't participate in it? I realize there are serious societal pressures to conform and be part of that 'old boys club'. But that is exactly the problem, your support of it (even if mostly implicit by merely being present, is made explicit when you laugh along with the sexist jokes or nod in agreement) is what perpetuates your male privilege. I have a lot of privilege too, so I'm not talking from some theoretical moral high ground of being less privileged than you. But I try not to participate. It's one of the hardest things to stand up to society and your peers. But next time, try walking away. It isn't as good as telling the others why they are being bigoted, but it's better than contributing. And I realize that isn't always possible. But the next time you get a job, or promotion, and you get that 'old boys club' vibe. Realize that someone else might have gotten that if they had been male (or white, or straight, or Christian, or American, or ...).

tomp 13y ago
> But that is exactly the problem, your support of it (even if mostly implicit by merely being present, is made explicit when you laugh along with the sexist jokes or nod in agreement) is what perpetuates your male privilege. The choice, for me and him and maybe other people (men included) is very simple: we can either accept reality, conform to the "old boy's club" (you call that "supporting it"), and progress in our careers, or fight moral battles we cannot win and stagnate professionally or even be fired. It's easy to take the moral high ground from a position of power, but from a position of a young male, it's not very wise. Personally, I find that all great employees I've worked with have also been great people, so I haven't had this problem myself. But I think that your position is not the most reasonable.
- SolarNet 13y ago
  Did you not read what I said? Conforming is supporting it! It's a hard choice to not to, but it is still a choice to conform. So it may hurt your career. Many people don't have careers to advance because of the assholes you are "conforming" with. And so you perpetuate it. Well done! So brave! And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money.
  - tomp 13y ago
    > Did you not read what I said? Have you? > And people wonder how people who aren’t white or male (or straight, or christian) make less money. And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. Sorry, but I don't think your demands are reasonable. I'd rather make the most money I can (without abusing others), and help others when I'm already in power. Speaking of morality and supporting the evil status quo, how many loafs of bread did you throw away this year (while people in India are starving), how many Chinese T-shirts have you bought (while the child workers making them are worked to death), how many times did you not donate your hard-earned money (while the children in Africa are dying of malaria), how many times did you not protest while your government's agents were abroad, killing "terrorists" and their children without any judicial (or any other) oversight? Morality is a bitch.
    - SolarNet 13y ago
      > And you're suggesting that therefore I, too, should make less money, even though my choice not to do so will make no difference in the world. It's great that you may one day be powerful enough to help with equality. But in the meantime you are going to be fine with gaining that power by abusing your privilege? How's that equality coming along then? Doing the right thing isn't a fucking cost/benefit analysis. What you (apparently) participate in is the fucking problem [0]. The next time you think, 'why aren't there more women in tech', go look in a fucking mirror. > Morality is a bitch. Yes but I at least protest those things. And I do volunteer, and donate. Apparently because the world is horrible we can all just be passive about the injustices we can fix. Go fuck yourself. [0] http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit_Technology http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/319212/Why_Women_Quit...

facepalm 13y ago

Unfortunately, should you ever be attracted to a female coworker, it will still be accounted for as sexism on your part.

lilsunnybee 13y ago
Only if you one-sidedly try to impose yourself on that person, without regards to their attraction to you. Flirt and ask someone out if they seem interested, but if they aren't, drop it. What is uncomfortable and makes for a really hostile work environment is advances and unwanted attention that can't be easily stopped.
- facepalm 13y ago
  I think you underestimate how far things have already escalated. Even if you ask somebody out just once, chances are you are one of many and eventually you will be a data point in the "I was constantly being harassed" claim.

erikpukinskis 13y ago

I would normally try not to give advice, because I don't know you at all, but you flagged yourself as young, so I am throwing out a generic bit of advice. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't apply. You sound like a good person, aware of some things many your age are not. That's awesome and you should be proud. However, please be very careful with the idea that you "literally give no merit to the gender of [your] coworkers". Many of these behaviors are so subtle that they go completely unnoticed by everyone involved. Most of the truly overt forms of sexism became passé years ago. What's left is covert, and very pernicious. I have been working on trying to increase my awareness of sexism for about a decade now, and I still find myself doing and thinking sexist things every week. Your privilege is not something you can just lay down. It's a silent companion, (a "dark passenger" for the Dexter fans out there), that you will live with for the rest of your life. Being a good person means staying alert, keeping a little fear in your gut, listening charitably to the people around you, doing your homework, and trusting yourself and your community, day after day. OK, sorry if that verged a little into lecture territory. It really sounds like you're on the right path already.