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I cannot determine if your comment is in earnest, or if it is an attempt to create a parody of a comment that a sexist asshole would post. Honestly, I cannot t

by com2kid 13y ago

I cannot determine if your comment is in earnest, or if it is an attempt to create a parody of a comment that a sexist asshole would post. Honestly, I cannot tell. Now I do believe that if society made it acceptable to just outright ask, with no hard feelings either way "hey, want to go out?" that everything would be better. I guess my point is that I see the quotes you put forth as being ridiculously extreme examples of what would exist in the minds of only the most lowly of savage males.

SolarNet 13y ago
> Now I do believe that if society made it acceptable to just outright ask, with no hard feelings either way "hey, want to go out?" that everything would be better. This, exactly this. The problem is that the asker has to be able to take no as an answer, and deal with it. Which means not asking multiple times in rapid succession, or even asking often. And everyone involved (including friends) needs to make sure they don't shame the people involved in the exchange. A lot of gendered problems enter this equation (at least for heterosexuals, I'm sure many other complicated societal problems (some of them related) exist for homosexuals). For example a problem for men is they have a lot of pressure to not be wrong and hence only ask women out when it's a sure, or very likely, thing. For example a problem for women is rape (i.e. rape culture, slut shaming, etc.), so they tend to hang out with their friends for protection, which makes it hard for (generally female) people to have (or talk about) a relationship without a lot of people knowing about it (you know, to back up that they aren't a slut, in case they get raped (I realize people here are pretty liberal, and that sounds horrid, but it's why some women often stick together and 'gossip')). Oh, by the way, one of those things is not like the other, one is a massive societal problem, one is merely a societal pressure, but both, among many others, need to be dealt with.
DanBC 13y ago
The comment is earnest. The fact that people on HN make similar comments and believe what they say is proof that sexism is a problem. It's also why people flag submissions like this - the comments are full of vile hateful idiocy.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  What do you mean? What did I say that is either "vile and hateful" or "proves sexism is a problem"?
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    Because your proposed solution to possible working awkwardness is not 'growing a pair', it's making an already awkward moment even more awkward, or possibly scary. Now not only does she have to deal with your blustery bravado in the moment, she also has to worry about unwanted advances in future situations where you might be alone together. What you seem to think is candid, useful communication is anything but. If you are attracted to someone you're going to be working closely with, there is a time-honored approach for dealing with it. You flirt. If you're good at flirting, then it is non-serious and does not create a threatening atmosphere. It shows off your positive personality qualities and hides your negative ones. Most importantly, it gives the lady in question an out if she doesn't want to go there with you, she simply doesn't respond. If she doesn't respond to your flirting, then she's not interested and the stand-up, manly thing to do is to stop flirting, and carry on your working relationship in a completely professional manner.
    - dhimes 13y ago
      I think you're on to something with the 'flirting' thing. Unfortunately, most of us probably don't know how to very well- especially when it comes to reading the other person's intent.
      - jamesaguilar 13y ago
        It is OK to get things wrong, too. I mean, ideally, you'll look for romantic partners outside the workplace, but if you must look at work, it can still be OK. If you flirt, you think the other person is flirting back, you ask them out, and they reject you, that is neither sexual harassment nor a grave offense. Example approach (in our scenario, this is toward the end of a workday, which is when you would want to do anything like this): "Hey, I've been having a lot of fun working with you, would you want to get dinner together sometime?" "Oh, I'm sorry, I'm [not looking for a relationship right now|seeing someone else|not interested in you that way|...]." "Oh, shoot. Well, I'll see you tomorrow then." (Go home.) It may be a little awkward, but if you do things respectfully, then it will probably not ruin the working relationship. And more importantly, you'll have flattered the person you're working with, not creeped them out or made their workplace environment hostile, not cemented yourself in their mind as a total asshole, and not put yourself at risk for getting fired for harassment. Of course, you will never do this to one of your reports or their transitive reports unless you would like to lose your job. Only peers or members of another org.

by com2kid 13y ago

SolarNet 13y ago

> Now I do believe that if society made it acceptable to just outright ask, with no hard feelings either way "hey, want to go out?" that everything would be better. This, exactly this. The problem is that the asker has to be able to take no as an answer, and deal with it. Which means not asking multiple times in rapid succession, or even asking often. And everyone involved (including friends) needs to make sure they don't shame the people involved in the exchange. A lot of gendered problems enter this equation (at least for heterosexuals, I'm sure many other complicated societal problems (some of them related) exist for homosexuals). For example a problem for men is they have a lot of pressure to not be wrong and hence only ask women out when it's a sure, or very likely, thing. For example a problem for women is rape (i.e. rape culture, slut shaming, etc.), so they tend to hang out with their friends for protection, which makes it hard for (generally female) people to have (or talk about) a relationship without a lot of people knowing about it (you know, to back up that they aren't a slut, in case they get raped (I realize people here are pretty liberal, and that sounds horrid, but it's why some women often stick together and 'gossip')). Oh, by the way, one of those things is not like the other, one is a massive societal problem, one is merely a societal pressure, but both, among many others, need to be dealt with.

DanBC 13y ago

The comment is earnest. The fact that people on HN make similar comments and believe what they say is proof that sexism is a problem. It's also why people flag submissions like this - the comments are full of vile hateful idiocy.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
What do you mean? What did I say that is either "vile and hateful" or "proves sexism is a problem"?
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  Because your proposed solution to possible working awkwardness is not 'growing a pair', it's making an already awkward moment even more awkward, or possibly scary. Now not only does she have to deal with your blustery bravado in the moment, she also has to worry about unwanted advances in future situations where you might be alone together. What you seem to think is candid, useful communication is anything but. If you are attracted to someone you're going to be working closely with, there is a time-honored approach for dealing with it. You flirt. If you're good at flirting, then it is non-serious and does not create a threatening atmosphere. It shows off your positive personality qualities and hides your negative ones. Most importantly, it gives the lady in question an out if she doesn't want to go there with you, she simply doesn't respond. If she doesn't respond to your flirting, then she's not interested and the stand-up, manly thing to do is to stop flirting, and carry on your working relationship in a completely professional manner.
  - dhimes 13y ago
    I think you're on to something with the 'flirting' thing. Unfortunately, most of us probably don't know how to very well- especially when it comes to reading the other person's intent.
    - jamesaguilar 13y ago
      It is OK to get things wrong, too. I mean, ideally, you'll look for romantic partners outside the workplace, but if you must look at work, it can still be OK. If you flirt, you think the other person is flirting back, you ask them out, and they reject you, that is neither sexual harassment nor a grave offense. Example approach (in our scenario, this is toward the end of a workday, which is when you would want to do anything like this): "Hey, I've been having a lot of fun working with you, would you want to get dinner together sometime?" "Oh, I'm sorry, I'm [not looking for a relationship right now|seeing someone else|not interested in you that way|...]." "Oh, shoot. Well, I'll see you tomorrow then." (Go home.) It may be a little awkward, but if you do things respectfully, then it will probably not ruin the working relationship. And more importantly, you'll have flattered the person you're working with, not creeped them out or made their workplace environment hostile, not cemented yourself in their mind as a total asshole, and not put yourself at risk for getting fired for harassment. Of course, you will never do this to one of your reports or their transitive reports unless you would like to lose your job. Only peers or members of another org.