7 ms·

I have no idea whether her claim is true or not, and what the culture is like at Github. But from even reading the title, I do know one thing - Julie is about t

I have no idea whether her claim is true or not, and what the culture is like at Github. But from even reading the title, I do know one thing - Julie is about to get a lot of negative attention directed at her personally, both publicly (e.g. on Twitter) and privately (e.g. email). I don't envy what she's about to go through[0]. Ignore for a moment the company (whether it's Github, Google, or Gawker). Isn't it sad that speaking out about (perceived) harassment carries a near 100% chance of inciting exponentially more harassment? [0] Perhaps I'll be proven wrong; I'd like to be. Unfortunately, reading the article and then the comments, that's looking less likely.

facepalm 13y ago
You can hardly expect zero backlash if you piss on other people's parade.
- olivierlacan 13y ago
  It's not a fucking parade. It's people's careers and livelihoods. Since when is speaking out about abuse (of any kind) trivially equated to relieving oneself?
  - facepalm 13y ago
    Well what I mean is that these are serious accusations, not just something you say "just like that". So there is a backlash, because people try to defend their turf (a ka their parade). Society seems to be divided in people who automatically believe all such accusations, and people who ask questions (and probably also people who automatically disbelieve them, to be fair). To me it seems fair to ask questions if so much is at stake.
  - rds2000 13y ago
    The results are predictable. A marketer / evangelist on twitter that survives off validation exploits a loophole in USA's charitable, politically correct culture. She bites more than she can chew, she is copying what she sees in popular culture of an Erin Brokovich fighting her enemies. She simply is mentally unable to admit personal fault. Why? Social media encouragement and well-meaning enablers. The secret.ly screenshot says how she can't handle professional criticism - behaviorally reinforced by culture, twitter and social networking sites "+1" and "retweet" is more important that doing what her manager and the house wants her to do.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      I don't know why anyone takes the bait with your comments. You're an anonymous single-issue throwaway account; there are no comments in your whole history that aren't you taking a valiant stand against the evil forces of feminism.
      - jsmthrowaway 13y ago
        Imagine if someone shared an opinion in support of feminism, and you, having read something you disagree with, proceeded to read their entire comment history and then comment upon it. That's a very, very common tactic against the very people you're supporting, so I'd caution against venturing down this path. Everybody loses. If you disagree, form some substance. If you want to attack the messenger, hold your tongue. You're not helping regardless of which side you stand on and no matter how obviously that account is perceived by you to be a troll.
        tptacek 13y ago
        I have no idea what you're trying to tell me here. The person we're talking about is a troll. That's useful information, regardless of whether it bothers you.
        jsmthrowaway 13y ago
        I'm just saying it's a common silencing tactic in the inverse and you're encouraging its efficacy.
        tptacek 13y ago
        This is what you're sticking up for: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7406870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7406870 You're comfortable with that?
        jsmthrowaway 13y ago
jsmthrowaway 13y ago
> I have no idea whether her claim is true or not The Internet has worked very hard in the last couple of decades to make the truth, the actual truth, completely nonexistent in our lives. It's a discouraging threshold to realize that it doesn't even matter if what she is saying is true or not. I'm serious. It doesn't. Those days are over. There is no truth any more. We now live in an age where one's interpretation of what is said first is the truth for them and they act accordingly. Some will interpret it as "pissing on a parade," as you see here, and will harass her. Some will interpret it as God's honest truth and will advocate accordingly. As a species, a lot of thought leaders have patted humanity on the back for how well-connected and well-informed we are with the Internet and 24/7 mentality being such a focused point of our lives, when in fact I think the truth is we're now a post-fact species. Observe the reaction to @LeaVerou's timeline in the last couple of hours to see what I mean, in particular Ashe Dryden's condemnation of her (reasonable) position. We've long passed the era of human history wherein reserving judgment until all the facts are known was the most ideal course of action for all parties. We're never getting it back, either, and we have to live with that now. I can think of unbounded examples of this. Sunil Tripathi is the first to spring to mind. As for the topic at hand, my cynicism tells me that I'd bet the farm on everything she's said being accurate. I do, however, wish to withhold judgment on both sides without being accused of enabling the decried behavior. That's an alarming trend from a certain vocal group in this industry, a "with us or against us" mentality that bothers me a lot. I've been called a "rape apologist" in the past for simply saying I didn't have enough information about an alleged rape to reach a conclusion. I have to be honest, it's discouraging to be intelligent enough to see this, because it makes life feel hopeless. I can see what the old idiom about ignorance and bliss means now.
- krrishd 13y ago
  @LeaVerou's points all seem pretty spot on to me. It may be that @nrrdcore was harassed, but again, we don't have too much solid information in front of us. Jumping to conclusions, both about @nrrrdcore and Github does not make any sense, yet here we are doing it, why? Because one of the parties involved is a female. I don't mean to sound insensitive here, but isn't that what sexism is? Basing our judgement based on gender? We should be waiting for the facts and evidence here. EDIT: And I just want to say, if @nrrdcore is right which she very well may be, then I agree that she should speak out. But we shouldn't be judging the situation until we have hard facts.
bsder 13y ago
> But from even reading the title, I do know one thing - Julie is about to get a lot of negative attention directed at her personally And this is why people who understand the political nature of jobs and who find themselves in a toxic culture just move on and leave the company to rot. There is zero upside to what she just did both legally and professionally. Next she will be complaining sexism in that nobody will hire her. Go figure--how many companies would hire a man who caused this kind of public stink? (see: Zed Shaw for the male example).
- null_ptr 13y ago
  No, yours is a defeatist attitude. The more people dare speak about workplace abuse the less downside there will be for future ones who do, legally and professionally. We're engineers, we shouldn't accept a rotten status quo and "move on", we should fix it. We should strive for a better society, even if it means some of us will be worse off for having done so. No pain, no gain.
  - bsder 13y ago
    > We're engineers, we shouldn't accept a rotten status quo and "move on", we should fix it. We should strive for a better society Why should we fight a battle against an entrenched enemy? Leaving and making a better company elsewhere is FAR more effective. This isn't like fighting a government where we are stuck because of geographic place. One of the many reasons why people form startups is to get out from under business culture that they perceive as oppressive. She would be better off founding a company that shares her values where she can push them from the top rather than fighting from underneath inside one that does not.
    - malandrew 13y ago
      This. A lot of the reason current startups have such fun cultures is because people who saw an opportunity to create a business consciously decided to build the type of company culture they want to manage. If she wants the world to have more of the type of culture she wants to foster then she should go ahead and start a company and be the leader for once. I'm certain that being at the top would temper her views of how much of her negative experiences were the result of actual active sexism and how much is inherent result of the manager/subordinate relationship.
Spooky23 13y ago
There are costs and benefits to airing your laundry. I have no idea who this person is it what the validity of her claims are. But posting a series of angry rants on the twitter is probably not the right answer.
- moron4hire 13y ago
  Maybe the common propensity for "moving on quietly" is what allows bad behavior to continue. Maybe if places started getting a bad reputation for treating their employees like shit--whether warranted or not--then every company would be hyper aware of treating people well.
- adamors 13y ago
  > I have no idea who this person is it what the validity of her claims are. But posting a series of angry rants on the twitter is probably not the right answer. She claims to be a victim of abuse. How else should she handle this, report it to their superiors who are her abusers? Not only that, but she feels she is responsible for painting the company in a good light all these years, when it wasn't true. https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444650888859099136 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444650888859099136 > I regret defending GitHub's culture to feminists for the last two years. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt in doing so.
pervycreeper 13y ago
>I do know one thing >near 100% chance >exponentially more [emphasis mine] >Perhaps I'll be proven wrong It seems like you're admitting that you don't know. Predicting the future can be tough, even when making unfalsifiable claims.
rmc 13y ago
> Isn't it sad that speaking out about (perceived) harassment carries a near 100% chance of inciting exponentially more harassment? Lewis' Law: The comments on an article about feminism justify the existance of feminism.

facepalm 13y ago

You can hardly expect zero backlash if you piss on other people's parade.

olivierlacan 13y ago
It's not a fucking parade. It's people's careers and livelihoods. Since when is speaking out about abuse (of any kind) trivially equated to relieving oneself?
- facepalm 13y ago
  Well what I mean is that these are serious accusations, not just something you say "just like that". So there is a backlash, because people try to defend their turf (a ka their parade). Society seems to be divided in people who automatically believe all such accusations, and people who ask questions (and probably also people who automatically disbelieve them, to be fair). To me it seems fair to ask questions if so much is at stake.
- rds2000 13y ago
  The results are predictable. A marketer / evangelist on twitter that survives off validation exploits a loophole in USA's charitable, politically correct culture. She bites more than she can chew, she is copying what she sees in popular culture of an Erin Brokovich fighting her enemies. She simply is mentally unable to admit personal fault. Why? Social media encouragement and well-meaning enablers. The secret.ly screenshot says how she can't handle professional criticism - behaviorally reinforced by culture, twitter and social networking sites "+1" and "retweet" is more important that doing what her manager and the house wants her to do.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    I don't know why anyone takes the bait with your comments. You're an anonymous single-issue throwaway account; there are no comments in your whole history that aren't you taking a valiant stand against the evil forces of feminism.
    - jsmthrowaway 13y ago
      Imagine if someone shared an opinion in support of feminism, and you, having read something you disagree with, proceeded to read their entire comment history and then comment upon it. That's a very, very common tactic against the very people you're supporting, so I'd caution against venturing down this path. Everybody loses. If you disagree, form some substance. If you want to attack the messenger, hold your tongue. You're not helping regardless of which side you stand on and no matter how obviously that account is perceived by you to be a troll.
      - tptacek 13y ago
        I have no idea what you're trying to tell me here. The person we're talking about is a troll. That's useful information, regardless of whether it bothers you.
        jsmthrowaway 13y ago
        I'm just saying it's a common silencing tactic in the inverse and you're encouraging its efficacy.
        tptacek 13y ago
        This is what you're sticking up for: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7406870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7406870 You're comfortable with that?
        jsmthrowaway 13y ago

jsmthrowaway 13y ago

> I have no idea whether her claim is true or not The Internet has worked very hard in the last couple of decades to make the truth, the actual truth, completely nonexistent in our lives. It's a discouraging threshold to realize that it doesn't even matter if what she is saying is true or not. I'm serious. It doesn't. Those days are over. There is no truth any more. We now live in an age where one's interpretation of what is said first is the truth for them and they act accordingly. Some will interpret it as "pissing on a parade," as you see here, and will harass her. Some will interpret it as God's honest truth and will advocate accordingly. As a species, a lot of thought leaders have patted humanity on the back for how well-connected and well-informed we are with the Internet and 24/7 mentality being such a focused point of our lives, when in fact I think the truth is we're now a post-fact species. Observe the reaction to @LeaVerou's timeline in the last couple of hours to see what I mean, in particular Ashe Dryden's condemnation of her (reasonable) position. We've long passed the era of human history wherein reserving judgment until all the facts are known was the most ideal course of action for all parties. We're never getting it back, either, and we have to live with that now. I can think of unbounded examples of this. Sunil Tripathi is the first to spring to mind. As for the topic at hand, my cynicism tells me that I'd bet the farm on everything she's said being accurate. I do, however, wish to withhold judgment on both sides without being accused of enabling the decried behavior. That's an alarming trend from a certain vocal group in this industry, a "with us or against us" mentality that bothers me a lot. I've been called a "rape apologist" in the past for simply saying I didn't have enough information about an alleged rape to reach a conclusion. I have to be honest, it's discouraging to be intelligent enough to see this, because it makes life feel hopeless. I can see what the old idiom about ignorance and bliss means now.

krrishd 13y ago
@LeaVerou's points all seem pretty spot on to me. It may be that @nrrdcore was harassed, but again, we don't have too much solid information in front of us. Jumping to conclusions, both about @nrrrdcore and Github does not make any sense, yet here we are doing it, why? Because one of the parties involved is a female. I don't mean to sound insensitive here, but isn't that what sexism is? Basing our judgement based on gender? We should be waiting for the facts and evidence here. EDIT: And I just want to say, if @nrrdcore is right which she very well may be, then I agree that she should speak out. But we shouldn't be judging the situation until we have hard facts.

bsder 13y ago

> But from even reading the title, I do know one thing - Julie is about to get a lot of negative attention directed at her personally And this is why people who understand the political nature of jobs and who find themselves in a toxic culture just move on and leave the company to rot. There is zero upside to what she just did both legally and professionally. Next she will be complaining sexism in that nobody will hire her. Go figure--how many companies would hire a man who caused this kind of public stink? (see: Zed Shaw for the male example).

null_ptr 13y ago
No, yours is a defeatist attitude. The more people dare speak about workplace abuse the less downside there will be for future ones who do, legally and professionally. We're engineers, we shouldn't accept a rotten status quo and "move on", we should fix it. We should strive for a better society, even if it means some of us will be worse off for having done so. No pain, no gain.
- bsder 13y ago
  > We're engineers, we shouldn't accept a rotten status quo and "move on", we should fix it. We should strive for a better society Why should we fight a battle against an entrenched enemy? Leaving and making a better company elsewhere is FAR more effective. This isn't like fighting a government where we are stuck because of geographic place. One of the many reasons why people form startups is to get out from under business culture that they perceive as oppressive. She would be better off founding a company that shares her values where she can push them from the top rather than fighting from underneath inside one that does not.
  - malandrew 13y ago
    This. A lot of the reason current startups have such fun cultures is because people who saw an opportunity to create a business consciously decided to build the type of company culture they want to manage. If she wants the world to have more of the type of culture she wants to foster then she should go ahead and start a company and be the leader for once. I'm certain that being at the top would temper her views of how much of her negative experiences were the result of actual active sexism and how much is inherent result of the manager/subordinate relationship.

Spooky23 13y ago

There are costs and benefits to airing your laundry. I have no idea who this person is it what the validity of her claims are. But posting a series of angry rants on the twitter is probably not the right answer.

moron4hire 13y ago
Maybe the common propensity for "moving on quietly" is what allows bad behavior to continue. Maybe if places started getting a bad reputation for treating their employees like shit--whether warranted or not--then every company would be hyper aware of treating people well.
adamors 13y ago
> I have no idea who this person is it what the validity of her claims are. But posting a series of angry rants on the twitter is probably not the right answer. She claims to be a victim of abuse. How else should she handle this, report it to their superiors who are her abusers? Not only that, but she feels she is responsible for painting the company in a good light all these years, when it wasn't true. https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444650888859099136 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444650888859099136 > I regret defending GitHub's culture to feminists for the last two years. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt in doing so.

pervycreeper 13y ago

>I do know one thing >near 100% chance >exponentially more [emphasis mine] >Perhaps I'll be proven wrong It seems like you're admitting that you don't know. Predicting the future can be tough, even when making unfalsifiable claims.

rmc 13y ago

> Isn't it sad that speaking out about (perceived) harassment carries a near 100% chance of inciting exponentially more harassment? Lewis' Law: The comments on an article about feminism justify the existance of feminism.