6 ms·

Zero percent of this conversation should be about the article, and should entirely be on the validity of the claim against the unhealthy work environment.

by codelap 13y ago

oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
Sorry, but the article is doing Julie Ann Horvath a disservice by mixing up her - let's assume valid - complaints about the work environment with irrelevant rubbish. Blame re/code for not treating the subject seriously, either purposefully, or through sheer incompetence.
- devnonymous 13y ago
  Well, it's the internets !! I wouldn't blame re/code. Julie has done herself a disservice by mixing up her - let's assume valid - complaints about the work environment with venting out on Twitter. I find it amazing that the kind of people who presumably, ought to know and understand the effect of something going viral sometimes are so unconcerned about what they post.
droopyEyelids 13y ago
Unfortunately, we can't judge the claim at all, because for now it's innuendo, not a claim. I'm curious why she'd post this on Twitter instead of taking it to a lawyer. And I don't mean for that to be innuendo- there are many reasons for this to go any which way.
- erikpukinskis 13y ago
  If I had told people publicly my workplace was safe for women, and then I found out it wasn't, It would be important to me to let people know that fairly quickly. There might be other women applying for jobs there and making big life choices based on that information who deserve to know that the information has changed.
  - corresation 13y ago
    If I had told people publicly my workplace was safe for women, and then I found out it wasn't, It would be important to me to let people know that fairly quickly. If you publicly told people that for two years, and suddenly have a live-streamed blow-out on twitter with Facebook-style innuendo, honestly I would completely discount your claims as an emotional tantrum, and would give it absolutely no stock. There is absolutely nothing "actionable" being discussed. And this may surprise some people, but women are just as capable as men of grinding an axe or trying to take down someone (or some organization) they feel slighted by.
    - tesseractive 13y ago
      So if you were a woman considering taking a job at GitHub, this would have no influence on your decision? Really? All it would take for me personally to reverse my stance on an employer being a good place for women is a single case in which I reported being sexually harassed and management then took the side of the harasser over me. Because one case is not acceptable, and it's all it takes to turn a workplace into a hostile and unpleasant environment. That's not to say "oh, if she says something, she must be telling the truth", but the possibility that she is telling the truth is a huge red flag.
      - EC1 13y ago
        You're thinking only one level deep and taking her statements at face value. Look at the entire construction of this piece. What was specifically referenced? Nothing really. In my opinion, a simple tweet like "@x has done @y thus influencing me to leave this company, will put up a blog post." would be much more effective. This way people know what happened, and all journalism is formed around the actual event. If the guy didn't want to get called out publicly, maybe he shouldn't have fucked up, but this way we get to hear both sides of the story.
        tesseractive 13y ago
        No, I'm using risk analysis to conclude that the cost to me of accepting a job there if she's telling the truth is much higher than the opportunity cost of not taking the job (assuming I have other options) if her complaint turns out to be wrong. Edited to add: the process of deciding the best action to take given uncertain information is fundamentally different from the process of trying to decide what is most likely to be true when there is nothing in particular at stake personally.
- mst 13y ago
  She'd put a fair amount of reputational capital behind the idea that github wasn't like that, so making a public retraction is the honourable move if she genuinely believes she was publically spreading misinformation previously.
  - CaveTech 13y ago
    But then the question is, why was she speaking out in favour of github in the first place? She's either currently faced with an unusual situation that doesn't reflect githubs normal behaviour, or she had no credibility in the first place. At this point, she seems disgruntled about a single issue and is using it as a platform to stir up wider controversy.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      > or she has no credibility in the first place. Are you like... going back in time and revising your opinion?
      - CaveTech 13y ago
        Amazing catch, glad you could add to the discussion.
    - crassus 13y ago
      A very puzzling point of view. She claims to have been harassed all along at GitHub while she was promoting it. This goes to show the limitations of the twitter platform for serious discussion. I'm sure she'd have a more logical case to make in >140 characters. Twitter is the easiest platform to vent on, and that is precisely why it should be avoided in such circumstances. "I regret defending GitHub's culture to feminists for the last two years. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt in doing so." "I've been harassed by 'leadership' at GitHub for two years. And I am the first developer to quit." Worse than having a serious discussion on twitter, though, is tweeting twitter as a source of breaking news.
  - stephp 13y ago
    She never said GitHub "wasn't like that" as much as that she was doing her best to change the situation from inside of her own company (GitHub). She encouraged women to join GitHub because of the change she was working on creating-- not because it was a utopia at the present time. That was never claimed. (Though your point is still valid that she was "changing her tune" and that is a risk for anyone to do publicly.)
- kaonashi 13y ago
  >I'm curious why she'd post this on Twitter instead of taking it to a lawyer Because sometimes people do things, that while completely legal, can also make people feel unwelcome and unsafe.
  - tedks 13y ago
    Or because the expected cost-benefit of a protracted legal battle might be negative. The legal system is not the only possible recourse for settling disputes or grievances.
coherentpony 13y ago
There can be no validity of the claim until we hear more. Anything henceforth will be speculation.

Zero percent of this conversation should be about the article, and should entirely be on the validity of the claim against the unhealthy work environment.

by codelap 13y ago

Zero percent of this conversation should be about the article, and should entirely be on the validity of the claim against the unhealthy work environment.

oneeyedpigeon 13y ago

Sorry, but the article is doing Julie Ann Horvath a disservice by mixing up her - let's assume valid - complaints about the work environment with irrelevant rubbish. Blame re/code for not treating the subject seriously, either purposefully, or through sheer incompetence.

devnonymous 13y ago
Well, it's the internets !! I wouldn't blame re/code. Julie has done herself a disservice by mixing up her - let's assume valid - complaints about the work environment with venting out on Twitter. I find it amazing that the kind of people who presumably, ought to know and understand the effect of something going viral sometimes are so unconcerned about what they post.

droopyEyelids 13y ago

Unfortunately, we can't judge the claim at all, because for now it's innuendo, not a claim. I'm curious why she'd post this on Twitter instead of taking it to a lawyer. And I don't mean for that to be innuendo- there are many reasons for this to go any which way.

erikpukinskis 13y ago
If I had told people publicly my workplace was safe for women, and then I found out it wasn't, It would be important to me to let people know that fairly quickly. There might be other women applying for jobs there and making big life choices based on that information who deserve to know that the information has changed.
- corresation 13y ago
  If I had told people publicly my workplace was safe for women, and then I found out it wasn't, It would be important to me to let people know that fairly quickly. If you publicly told people that for two years, and suddenly have a live-streamed blow-out on twitter with Facebook-style innuendo, honestly I would completely discount your claims as an emotional tantrum, and would give it absolutely no stock. There is absolutely nothing "actionable" being discussed. And this may surprise some people, but women are just as capable as men of grinding an axe or trying to take down someone (or some organization) they feel slighted by.
  - tesseractive 13y ago
    So if you were a woman considering taking a job at GitHub, this would have no influence on your decision? Really? All it would take for me personally to reverse my stance on an employer being a good place for women is a single case in which I reported being sexually harassed and management then took the side of the harasser over me. Because one case is not acceptable, and it's all it takes to turn a workplace into a hostile and unpleasant environment. That's not to say "oh, if she says something, she must be telling the truth", but the possibility that she is telling the truth is a huge red flag.
    - EC1 13y ago
      You're thinking only one level deep and taking her statements at face value. Look at the entire construction of this piece. What was specifically referenced? Nothing really. In my opinion, a simple tweet like "@x has done @y thus influencing me to leave this company, will put up a blog post." would be much more effective. This way people know what happened, and all journalism is formed around the actual event. If the guy didn't want to get called out publicly, maybe he shouldn't have fucked up, but this way we get to hear both sides of the story.
      - tesseractive 13y ago
        No, I'm using risk analysis to conclude that the cost to me of accepting a job there if she's telling the truth is much higher than the opportunity cost of not taking the job (assuming I have other options) if her complaint turns out to be wrong. Edited to add: the process of deciding the best action to take given uncertain information is fundamentally different from the process of trying to decide what is most likely to be true when there is nothing in particular at stake personally.
mst 13y ago
She'd put a fair amount of reputational capital behind the idea that github wasn't like that, so making a public retraction is the honourable move if she genuinely believes she was publically spreading misinformation previously.
- CaveTech 13y ago
  But then the question is, why was she speaking out in favour of github in the first place? She's either currently faced with an unusual situation that doesn't reflect githubs normal behaviour, or she had no credibility in the first place. At this point, she seems disgruntled about a single issue and is using it as a platform to stir up wider controversy.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    > or she has no credibility in the first place. Are you like... going back in time and revising your opinion?
    - CaveTech 13y ago
      Amazing catch, glad you could add to the discussion.
  - crassus 13y ago
    A very puzzling point of view. She claims to have been harassed all along at GitHub while she was promoting it. This goes to show the limitations of the twitter platform for serious discussion. I'm sure she'd have a more logical case to make in >140 characters. Twitter is the easiest platform to vent on, and that is precisely why it should be avoided in such circumstances. "I regret defending GitHub's culture to feminists for the last two years. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt in doing so." "I've been harassed by 'leadership' at GitHub for two years. And I am the first developer to quit." Worse than having a serious discussion on twitter, though, is tweeting twitter as a source of breaking news.
- stephp 13y ago
  She never said GitHub "wasn't like that" as much as that she was doing her best to change the situation from inside of her own company (GitHub). She encouraged women to join GitHub because of the change she was working on creating-- not because it was a utopia at the present time. That was never claimed. (Though your point is still valid that she was "changing her tune" and that is a risk for anyone to do publicly.)
kaonashi 13y ago
>I'm curious why she'd post this on Twitter instead of taking it to a lawyer Because sometimes people do things, that while completely legal, can also make people feel unwelcome and unsafe.
- tedks 13y ago
  Or because the expected cost-benefit of a protracted legal battle might be negative. The legal system is not the only possible recourse for settling disputes or grievances.

coherentpony 13y ago

There can be no validity of the claim until we hear more. Anything henceforth will be speculation.