11 ms·

Don't Ban “Bossy”

82 points by atomical 13y ago

adamnemecek 13y ago
I saw the video a couple of days ago and it was flabbergasting that someone thought that this whole thing is going to achieve anything.
- mschuster91 13y ago
  It's just feminists. Western version of the Taliban, if you ask me.
  - Ambrosia 13y ago
    yes obviously feminists were the real ones behind 9/11
- hga 13y ago
  If as some think this is battlespace preparation for Hillary's 2016 presidential run, the intended achievement is to make it harder to criticize her, and to others, that's worth a lot.
growupkids 13y ago
That's funny, I actually heard the word used when I was a military cadet in high school. It was used to teach the difference between being a a leader, or just, well bossy. Don't be a boss, don't act bossy, and so on. Bossy people, we were taught, boss people around by using their rank. No one wants to follow them, they just have to. That's the worst kind of leader, we were taught. don't be bossy was good feedback. A good leader inspires, sets the example, is firm but fair, and through their behavior and actions people will want to follow them. Not sure what all this implied sexism stuff is, I only heard it used around men, and it was and still is a damn fine term for the bad ones. What term would they prefer be used for someone that's acting bossy?
- Tohhou 13y ago
  >What term would they prefer be used for someone that's acting bossy? Something entirely devoid of meaning so that it could never possibly hurt anyone's feelings for being someone who tells people what to do without leading by example so as to inspire people to do.
  - digitalengineer 13y ago
    How about "American Aplha?" ;-)
- calibraxis 13y ago
  In Sandberg-style liberal feminism (which preserves inequality except for the more well-off white women and therefore doesn't help all women), I can imagine they want to improve subordination to female bosses. So you should be ready to follow her imperatives like you would Zuckerberg's. In corporations, boss subordination is so complete that "bossy" only applies to someone who isn't actually literally a boss. So I can imagine "bossy" is used to question the legitimacy of female bosses. However, more serious kinds of feminism directly attack the existence of bosses, since many more women are at the bottom of hierarchies than the top.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    > However, more serious kinds of feminism directly attack the existence of bosses, since many more women are at the bottom of hierarchies than the top. That's how hierarchies tend to be structured. :)
    - vanderZwan 13y ago
      I think the implication was relative to men...
  - _delirium 13y ago
    I found this critique along those lines interesting: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/feminisms-tipping-point-who-wins-from-leaning-in http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/feminisms-tip...
wyager 13y ago
I'm immediately extraordinarily skeptical about anything that suggests solving a cultural problem by changing language. That's like trying to solve a math problem by changing the value of pi.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  Agreed, but imagine how many more math problems you could solve if you were allowed to do that :D
  - Thirdegree 13y ago
    The answer to every geometry question I run into is now 7.
- corin_ 13y ago
  There is at least a theoretical logic to banning words like this: if being called bossy is causing girls to lose leadership skills then maybe stopping this artificially (even if people still think it without saying it) could lead to less girls being affected, and therefore in the next generation the stigma has disappeared. Obviously it's not that simple, and I have no idea to what extent, if any, this actually works, other than in theory.
  - Crito 13y ago
    > "if being called bossy is causing girls to lose leadership skills..." I don't think that this particular word is the root cause. More important is the reason why people are using it. If you ban that particular word without addressing why people are using it, then those people will adopt a new word to mean the exact same thing. Creating euphemism treadmills doesn't fix anything.
    - jkestner 13y ago
      Yep. Some people are taking this too literally. (Nerds parsing? No!) The heightened awareness of how word choice subtly undermines behavior we presumably want to encourage, is the point. This article suggests that instead of banning, women embrace the word as a badge they're doing something right (a la 'nerd'), and undermining the undermining would work too.
jedmeyers 13y ago
I understand that this is a touchy subject, especially on HN, but come on: "Avoid editing what you want to say in your head, and try not to worry about being wrong." This is straight from their Leadership Tips for Girls pdf. They are encouraging girls to just say whatever comes to mind. What's next - calling everyone who disagrees "sexist"?
- Tohhou 13y ago
  >What's next - calling everyone who disagrees "sexist"? If you disagree then you are automatically labeled as one of the obvious sexist rapist rape apologist pedophile neckbeard supremacist spermjacked nerd sperglord virgin libertarian losers. They can't possibly be wrong, so if you disagree you must be one of the hell bound sinners of the most dire nightmare. >"Avoid editing what you want to say in your head, and try not to worry about being wrong." This is very sexist of them. Their implication is that males are stupid and don't ever censor themselves when they work to be good leaders - that they are only gain leader status because they say every dumb idea they have, and that saying stupid things shouldn't have any consequences.
  - pigDisgusting 13y ago
    You forgot "creepy stalker", you closed-minded male chauvinist ape.
    - Tohhou 13y ago
      That's female chauvinist ape, shitlord!
      - pigDisgusting 13y ago
        Well played, Tohhou, well played. Now if you'll please excuse me, I've just stepped in some of my own doggy doo, and I need scrape off my shoe.
  - vacri 13y ago
    Calm down with the flamebait.
orky56 13y ago
It's funny but "bully" is more associated with males and "bossy" with females. Both have negative connotations of forcing someone to do something against their own will. It seems that the reason behind not banning "bossy" is that females require this opportunity for leadership development. It seems sexist that females should be allowed to impose their will on others but males shouldn't in similar situations. I would argue that females already have a leg up on their male counterparts with the fact that they mature earlier during adolescence and perhaps use this to their advantage. As the article mentions, other ways exist to exhibit leadership. Being bossy though is the worst alignment of incentives: power & peer acceptance thru fear vs respect.
- loomio 13y ago
  Oh yes, this must be why leadership positions in business, government, and all areas of life are dominated by women. Oh wait...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
d34b4c29 13y ago
Omg, the other day I mentioned a female in a random shirt. she looks " B wordy " and they called me > CIS patriarch scum.
jamesaguilar 13y ago
My brothers used it on me all the time, but that might not be the typical experience.
gaius 13y ago
I love the delicious lack of self-awareness with which these things are delivered. Like people who pay $50,000/year for college to study a subject of no practical use telling me to "check your privilege".
- someguyonhn 13y ago
  This is a kind of long response. But I hope maybe you'll read through it. Just saying "check your privilege" is probably not the best starting point for the conversation, so I'll try to do a better job of explaining. I don't know if you are misunderstanding what is meant by "privilege" or not, but the privilege being talked about when someone says "check your privilege" in my experience are the privileges that come from being part of the, for lack of a better term, more socially accepted or socially powerful group. Things like white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, you get the idea. So regardless of your level of income or education, you can be, and probably are, still privileged in the way society sees and treats you. For example, as a man, I pretty much never have to worry about being told I got a promotion because I was having sex with the boss, or that I'm only being angry or "emotional" about something because it's my "time of the month". Things that women have to deal with all the time. Another example would be that I'm never worried wanting to have children is going to be seen as bad for business, and result in me being denied promotions or other advancement because of it.(Not to mention I'm statistically going to be getting paid more than women for doing equal work.) Hopefully you can see how these are the type of privileges men, or another group of people in a similar situation, may never notice unless it is pointed out to them. Or they "check their privilege". In relation to Ban Bossy, an important example seems to be that I've been conditioned my entire life to aspire to be a leader: team captain, salesman of the year, best on the basketball court, you get the idea. And not once was I ever, or will I ever, be discouraged from asserting my leadership skills as essentially "not knowing my place" because I'm a man, which can be the outcome when we tell girls and young women to not be bossy or other similar things. Maybe a good exercise for you, and for all of us, is to listen to what people are saying when they describe the privileges we have, or to ask them to explain better because we would like to understand. Depending on our situation, maybe we'll gain a better understanding of our heterosexual privilege and being able to love who we want without having to worry that their gender will result in violence against us or them. Or maybe we'll learn about our religious privilege, and that we are able to practice a religion without inciting fear, being called names, profiled, assaulted, or killed because of the head covering we wear or for being "different".
stefantalpalaru 13y ago
I bellyfeel banning words is doubleplusgood.
logicallee 13y ago
Bossy is extremely specific and a terrible style of leadership. I've known bossy women as well as women who were great leaders. The overlap has between the two is the empty set. How about you teach real leadership skills to girls who like to lead? Such as understanding, empathy, reward, etc. Of course the same goes for men, and bossy men are just as big a problem.
uptown 13y ago
"Ban Bossy" Spokesperson: Beyoncé Beyoncé Lyrics: Bow down bitches, bow bow down bitches Bow down bitches, bow bow down bitches H-town vicious, h-h-town vicious I’m so crown, bow bow down bitches Beyoncé's husband Jay-Z Lyrics Excerpt: My nigga, please - you ain't signing no checks like these My nigga, please - you pushing no wheels like these My nigga, please - you ain't holding no tecks like these My nigga, please - you don't pop in vest like these
- someguyonhn 13y ago
  Firstly, I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign. But if you're going to bring it up, we might as well do it right. 1) Pharrell says those lines not Jay-Z. This is the same person who wrote/sings/produced the Academy-Award nominated "Happy" song from Despicable Me. 2) The context of lyrics within a song, the intended meaning of the song itself, and intended audience of a song should obviously be taken into consideration. On a site like HN, that so often seems to point out the ridiculous nature of arguments against video games causing violence, citing lyrics of someone's husband as somehow a statement about.... well I have to be honest, I can't follow the logic of the point you're trying to make... is disappointing. And finally 3) Here are some lyrics from Jay-Z that seem pretty relevant to your comment: "...Rap critics that say he's Money, Cash, Hoes I'm from the hood stupid, what type of facts are those If you grew up with holes in your zapatos You'd celebrate the minute you was having dough I'm like f-ck critics, you can kiss my whole a--hole If you don't like my lyrics, you can press fast forward... ...I don't know what you take me as Or understand the intelligence that Jay-Z has I'm from rags to riches, ni--as I ain't dumb I got 99 problems, but a b-tch ain't one, hit me"
  - uptown 13y ago
    Why'd you censor the lyrics? "I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign." We're talking about banning words. If I had to guess, I'd bet more people would support banning "nigga" than they would "bossy". Personally, I don't think any words should be "banned" because it's simply not possible. Society may evolve to not use a word, or shun those that do use a word - but a campaign to "ban" a word does an injustice to the literal meaning of the word "ban" because it's just not realistic, or possible.
nsxwolf 13y ago
Is there any empirical evidence this word harms girls?
- sp332 13y ago
  It's not about the word "bossy". "Ban Bossy" is just the name of the campaign.
tobehonest 13y ago
I would rather "slut" gone, than bossy.
skore 13y ago
(I didn't even know the "Ban Bossy" campaign existed, so I guess my comment is more about that and goes along with what the article is saying.) Looking at the videos - to an outsider like myself, they look massively ridiculous. So there is a societal problem where girls are either not empowered to lead or are discouraged from leading by others. To stop that practice, we will get rid of calling them a specific word. Words only have the meaning that we put into them. "Bossy" can be applied correctly or incorrectly. How is the word at fault? I think "only in America" applies here. Instead of understanding that this is a complex, complicated issue in society, let's find a catchy campaign title and rail against intangible things. Oh aren't we all happy we have dealt with the problem in a format that we can easily post to our facebook wall instead of, you know, doing the hard work of actually figuring out and dealing with people on a deeper, personal level. And yes, I get it, the campaign uses a reductive catchphrase to get a foot in the door and then deliver a more nuanced message. But I think a campaign set on a weird, possibly destructive premise may do more harm than good. It may lead people to think they're doing something when they're actually doing nothing apart from perpetuating a meme. How about we all just stop and check ourselves before reducing others to adjectives in general? Grown-ups and children, women and men alike? Maybe this tendency to grasp for the simple answer, the quick phrase at all times is the root of the problem and should thus not be utilized as a solution.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
iterationx 13y ago
While feminists were busy telling the world about the dire need to ban the word “bossy,” the Iraqi parliament was considering the implementation of a new law that would legalize rape, prohibit women leaving home without the permission of their husband, and legalize marriage for 9-year-olds. “If passed, the law will apply to Iraq’s Shia Muslims, the majority of the population. Provisions include prohibiting Muslim men from marrying non-Muslim women, legalising rape inside marriage by declaring that a husband has a right to sex regardless of consent, and prohibiting women from leaving the house without their husband’s permission,” reports Breitbart.com. The law, which has been denounced by Human Rights Watch as a violation of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), would also lower the age of marriage to nine years old for girls and 15 for boys. Despite the fact that the law represents an egregious assault on women’s rights and wouldn’t look out of place in the stone age, you probably didn’t hear about it because self-proclaimed feminists were too busy concentrating on more pressing atrocities being inflicted upon women – such as people using the word “bossy”. http://www.infowars.com/new-iraqi-law-legalizes-rape-feminists-too-busy-banning-words-to-care/ http://www.infowars.com/new-iraqi-law-legalizes-rape-feminis...
- chilldream 13y ago
  I agree with the article, but "There are Starving Kids in Africa" is a stock bad argument
  - chongli 13y ago
    Yep, it's a fallacy too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
  - iterationx 13y ago
    You missed the point of the article with your pointless nitpicking, so here it is, try again... That’s because second wave feminism is not about protecting women’s rights, it’s about stirring up a contrived gender war and impugning western culture, the middle class and the family unit as the source of all sexism and oppression, thereby making women more dependent on the government and hiding the true source of all oppression – the state.
wcummings 13y ago
I'm impressed by how much people are missing the point. It's just about raising awareness of how young girls are treated, no one is actually banning any words.
- dkrich 13y ago
  Then maybe they shouldn't have led with the name "Ban Bossy?" If you create a marketing campaign and it is misinterpreted by what is presumably largely your target group (men who don't realize their words are apparently harming girls during their formative years) the fault is yours, not your audience.
mildtrepidation 13y ago
From BanBossy.org: When a little boy asserts himself, he's called a “leader.” Yet when a little girl does the same, she risks being branded “bossy.” Words like bossy send a message: don't raise your hand or speak up. By middle school, girls are less interested in leading than boys—a trend that continues into adulthood. Together we can encourage girls to lead. So yes, as others have said here, the goal is not necessarily (or only) to get rid of the usage of the word. But as is very evident from other responses, that is not immediately obvious to everyone, in no small part because of the arguably poor catch phrase being used. I'm also not thrilled with some of the 'motivational' phrases being thrown around. "I'm not bossy; I'm the boss" (Beyonce) is not constructive. It's puerile and is more likely to encourage actual bossy behavior (the negative kind, as defined well elsewhere in this thread) than to help introduce equality in the way we encourage leadership attributes in all children. Not, of course, that equality seems to be emphasized here. Which is a typical problem and one that's unlikely to help this campaign make a real difference, as it's immediately exclusive to some degree rather than encouraging everyone to be confident.
cushychicken 13y ago
You can see how this campaign of proclaiming "bossy" to no longer be gender neutral has caused me (a heterosexual white male) some serious gender identity issues, as I was frequently called "bossy" as a child. Does this mean I'm actually a woman?
SnydenBitchy 13y ago
Wow, the “discussion” here validates every negative stereotype about the tech community, you troglodytes who I’m embarrassed to call my peers. I wonder if it’s it too late, at 31, for me to change careers?
- masterleep 13y ago
  Are there no online communities that you can't complain about?
droopybuns 13y ago
"The number one reason that why girls are not turning into leaders is because they are occupied with posting selfies on your fucking Facebook, Sandberg!" -Adam Curry
theorique 13y ago
"Bossy" doesn't refer to a person (male or female) who embodies good qualities of leadership. Instead, it is used to describe someone who takes charge in a rude and disrespectful way. Examples include: giving others orders, shouting, emotional manipulation, tantrums, and so forth. Anybody who behaves this way may be "leading", in some sense, but they are not being a very good leader. Conversely, a girl who leads her friends and peers in a kind and empowering way is not being bossy. It would make just as much sense have a campaign to "ban douchebag" or "ban asshole", as these terms are disproportionately applied to men. And those terms don't apply to being a leader, they apply to being a rude, disrespectful leader.

82 points by atomical 13y ago

I saw the video a couple of days ago and it was flabbergasting that someone thought that this whole thing is going to achieve anything.

mschuster91 13y ago
It's just feminists. Western version of the Taliban, if you ask me.
- Ambrosia 13y ago
  yes obviously feminists were the real ones behind 9/11
hga 13y ago
If as some think this is battlespace preparation for Hillary's 2016 presidential run, the intended achievement is to make it harder to criticize her, and to others, that's worth a lot.

growupkids 13y ago

That's funny, I actually heard the word used when I was a military cadet in high school. It was used to teach the difference between being a a leader, or just, well bossy. Don't be a boss, don't act bossy, and so on. Bossy people, we were taught, boss people around by using their rank. No one wants to follow them, they just have to. That's the worst kind of leader, we were taught. don't be bossy was good feedback. A good leader inspires, sets the example, is firm but fair, and through their behavior and actions people will want to follow them. Not sure what all this implied sexism stuff is, I only heard it used around men, and it was and still is a damn fine term for the bad ones. What term would they prefer be used for someone that's acting bossy?

Tohhou 13y ago
>What term would they prefer be used for someone that's acting bossy? Something entirely devoid of meaning so that it could never possibly hurt anyone's feelings for being someone who tells people what to do without leading by example so as to inspire people to do.
- digitalengineer 13y ago
  How about "American Aplha?" ;-)
calibraxis 13y ago
In Sandberg-style liberal feminism (which preserves inequality except for the more well-off white women and therefore doesn't help all women), I can imagine they want to improve subordination to female bosses. So you should be ready to follow her imperatives like you would Zuckerberg's. In corporations, boss subordination is so complete that "bossy" only applies to someone who isn't actually literally a boss. So I can imagine "bossy" is used to question the legitimacy of female bosses. However, more serious kinds of feminism directly attack the existence of bosses, since many more women are at the bottom of hierarchies than the top.
- Dewie 13y ago
  > However, more serious kinds of feminism directly attack the existence of bosses, since many more women are at the bottom of hierarchies than the top. That's how hierarchies tend to be structured. :)
  - vanderZwan 13y ago
    I think the implication was relative to men...
- _delirium 13y ago
  I found this critique along those lines interesting: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/feminisms-tipping-point-who-wins-from-leaning-in http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/feminisms-tip...

wyager 13y ago

I'm immediately extraordinarily skeptical about anything that suggests solving a cultural problem by changing language. That's like trying to solve a math problem by changing the value of pi.

thaumasiotes 13y ago
Agreed, but imagine how many more math problems you could solve if you were allowed to do that :D
- Thirdegree 13y ago
  The answer to every geometry question I run into is now 7.
corin_ 13y ago
There is at least a theoretical logic to banning words like this: if being called bossy is causing girls to lose leadership skills then maybe stopping this artificially (even if people still think it without saying it) could lead to less girls being affected, and therefore in the next generation the stigma has disappeared. Obviously it's not that simple, and I have no idea to what extent, if any, this actually works, other than in theory.
- Crito 13y ago
  > "if being called bossy is causing girls to lose leadership skills..." I don't think that this particular word is the root cause. More important is the reason why people are using it. If you ban that particular word without addressing why people are using it, then those people will adopt a new word to mean the exact same thing. Creating euphemism treadmills doesn't fix anything.
  - jkestner 13y ago
    Yep. Some people are taking this too literally. (Nerds parsing? No!) The heightened awareness of how word choice subtly undermines behavior we presumably want to encourage, is the point. This article suggests that instead of banning, women embrace the word as a badge they're doing something right (a la 'nerd'), and undermining the undermining would work too.

jedmeyers 13y ago

I understand that this is a touchy subject, especially on HN, but come on: "Avoid editing what you want to say in your head, and try not to worry about being wrong." This is straight from their Leadership Tips for Girls pdf. They are encouraging girls to just say whatever comes to mind. What's next - calling everyone who disagrees "sexist"?

Tohhou 13y ago
>What's next - calling everyone who disagrees "sexist"? If you disagree then you are automatically labeled as one of the obvious sexist rapist rape apologist pedophile neckbeard supremacist spermjacked nerd sperglord virgin libertarian losers. They can't possibly be wrong, so if you disagree you must be one of the hell bound sinners of the most dire nightmare. >"Avoid editing what you want to say in your head, and try not to worry about being wrong." This is very sexist of them. Their implication is that males are stupid and don't ever censor themselves when they work to be good leaders - that they are only gain leader status because they say every dumb idea they have, and that saying stupid things shouldn't have any consequences.
- pigDisgusting 13y ago
  You forgot "creepy stalker", you closed-minded male chauvinist ape.
  - Tohhou 13y ago
    That's female chauvinist ape, shitlord!
    - pigDisgusting 13y ago
      Well played, Tohhou, well played. Now if you'll please excuse me, I've just stepped in some of my own doggy doo, and I need scrape off my shoe.
- vacri 13y ago
  Calm down with the flamebait.

orky56 13y ago

It's funny but "bully" is more associated with males and "bossy" with females. Both have negative connotations of forcing someone to do something against their own will. It seems that the reason behind not banning "bossy" is that females require this opportunity for leadership development. It seems sexist that females should be allowed to impose their will on others but males shouldn't in similar situations. I would argue that females already have a leg up on their male counterparts with the fact that they mature earlier during adolescence and perhaps use this to their advantage. As the article mentions, other ways exist to exhibit leadership. Being bossy though is the worst alignment of incentives: power & peer acceptance thru fear vs respect.

loomio 13y ago
Oh yes, this must be why leadership positions in business, government, and all areas of life are dominated by women. Oh wait...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

d34b4c29 13y ago

Omg, the other day I mentioned a female in a random shirt. she looks " B wordy " and they called me > CIS patriarch scum.

jamesaguilar 13y ago

My brothers used it on me all the time, but that might not be the typical experience.

gaius 13y ago

I love the delicious lack of self-awareness with which these things are delivered. Like people who pay $50,000/year for college to study a subject of no practical use telling me to "check your privilege".

someguyonhn 13y ago
This is a kind of long response. But I hope maybe you'll read through it. Just saying "check your privilege" is probably not the best starting point for the conversation, so I'll try to do a better job of explaining. I don't know if you are misunderstanding what is meant by "privilege" or not, but the privilege being talked about when someone says "check your privilege" in my experience are the privileges that come from being part of the, for lack of a better term, more socially accepted or socially powerful group. Things like white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, you get the idea. So regardless of your level of income or education, you can be, and probably are, still privileged in the way society sees and treats you. For example, as a man, I pretty much never have to worry about being told I got a promotion because I was having sex with the boss, or that I'm only being angry or "emotional" about something because it's my "time of the month". Things that women have to deal with all the time. Another example would be that I'm never worried wanting to have children is going to be seen as bad for business, and result in me being denied promotions or other advancement because of it.(Not to mention I'm statistically going to be getting paid more than women for doing equal work.) Hopefully you can see how these are the type of privileges men, or another group of people in a similar situation, may never notice unless it is pointed out to them. Or they "check their privilege". In relation to Ban Bossy, an important example seems to be that I've been conditioned my entire life to aspire to be a leader: team captain, salesman of the year, best on the basketball court, you get the idea. And not once was I ever, or will I ever, be discouraged from asserting my leadership skills as essentially "not knowing my place" because I'm a man, which can be the outcome when we tell girls and young women to not be bossy or other similar things. Maybe a good exercise for you, and for all of us, is to listen to what people are saying when they describe the privileges we have, or to ask them to explain better because we would like to understand. Depending on our situation, maybe we'll gain a better understanding of our heterosexual privilege and being able to love who we want without having to worry that their gender will result in violence against us or them. Or maybe we'll learn about our religious privilege, and that we are able to practice a religion without inciting fear, being called names, profiled, assaulted, or killed because of the head covering we wear or for being "different".

stefantalpalaru 13y ago

I bellyfeel banning words is doubleplusgood.

logicallee 13y ago

Bossy is extremely specific and a terrible style of leadership. I've known bossy women as well as women who were great leaders. The overlap has between the two is the empty set. How about you teach real leadership skills to girls who like to lead? Such as understanding, empathy, reward, etc. Of course the same goes for men, and bossy men are just as big a problem.

uptown 13y ago

"Ban Bossy" Spokesperson: Beyoncé Beyoncé Lyrics: Bow down bitches, bow bow down bitches Bow down bitches, bow bow down bitches H-town vicious, h-h-town vicious I’m so crown, bow bow down bitches Beyoncé's husband Jay-Z Lyrics Excerpt: My nigga, please - you ain't signing no checks like these My nigga, please - you pushing no wheels like these My nigga, please - you ain't holding no tecks like these My nigga, please - you don't pop in vest like these

someguyonhn 13y ago
Firstly, I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign. But if you're going to bring it up, we might as well do it right. 1) Pharrell says those lines not Jay-Z. This is the same person who wrote/sings/produced the Academy-Award nominated "Happy" song from Despicable Me. 2) The context of lyrics within a song, the intended meaning of the song itself, and intended audience of a song should obviously be taken into consideration. On a site like HN, that so often seems to point out the ridiculous nature of arguments against video games causing violence, citing lyrics of someone's husband as somehow a statement about.... well I have to be honest, I can't follow the logic of the point you're trying to make... is disappointing. And finally 3) Here are some lyrics from Jay-Z that seem pretty relevant to your comment: "...Rap critics that say he's Money, Cash, Hoes I'm from the hood stupid, what type of facts are those If you grew up with holes in your zapatos You'd celebrate the minute you was having dough I'm like f-ck critics, you can kiss my whole a--hole If you don't like my lyrics, you can press fast forward... ...I don't know what you take me as Or understand the intelligence that Jay-Z has I'm from rags to riches, ni--as I ain't dumb I got 99 problems, but a b-tch ain't one, hit me"
- uptown 13y ago
  Why'd you censor the lyrics? "I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign." We're talking about banning words. If I had to guess, I'd bet more people would support banning "nigga" than they would "bossy". Personally, I don't think any words should be "banned" because it's simply not possible. Society may evolve to not use a word, or shun those that do use a word - but a campaign to "ban" a word does an injustice to the literal meaning of the word "ban" because it's just not realistic, or possible.

nsxwolf 13y ago

Is there any empirical evidence this word harms girls?

sp332 13y ago
It's not about the word "bossy". "Ban Bossy" is just the name of the campaign.

tobehonest 13y ago

I would rather "slut" gone, than bossy.

skore 13y ago

(I didn't even know the "Ban Bossy" campaign existed, so I guess my comment is more about that and goes along with what the article is saying.) Looking at the videos - to an outsider like myself, they look massively ridiculous. So there is a societal problem where girls are either not empowered to lead or are discouraged from leading by others. To stop that practice, we will get rid of calling them a specific word. Words only have the meaning that we put into them. "Bossy" can be applied correctly or incorrectly. How is the word at fault? I think "only in America" applies here. Instead of understanding that this is a complex, complicated issue in society, let's find a catchy campaign title and rail against intangible things. Oh aren't we all happy we have dealt with the problem in a format that we can easily post to our facebook wall instead of, you know, doing the hard work of actually figuring out and dealing with people on a deeper, personal level. And yes, I get it, the campaign uses a reductive catchphrase to get a foot in the door and then deliver a more nuanced message. But I think a campaign set on a weird, possibly destructive premise may do more harm than good. It may lead people to think they're doing something when they're actually doing nothing apart from perpetuating a meme. How about we all just stop and check ourselves before reducing others to adjectives in general? Grown-ups and children, women and men alike? Maybe this tendency to grasp for the simple answer, the quick phrase at all times is the root of the problem and should thus not be utilized as a solution.

deleted 13y ago
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iterationx 13y ago

While feminists were busy telling the world about the dire need to ban the word “bossy,” the Iraqi parliament was considering the implementation of a new law that would legalize rape, prohibit women leaving home without the permission of their husband, and legalize marriage for 9-year-olds. “If passed, the law will apply to Iraq’s Shia Muslims, the majority of the population. Provisions include prohibiting Muslim men from marrying non-Muslim women, legalising rape inside marriage by declaring that a husband has a right to sex regardless of consent, and prohibiting women from leaving the house without their husband’s permission,” reports Breitbart.com. The law, which has been denounced by Human Rights Watch as a violation of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW), would also lower the age of marriage to nine years old for girls and 15 for boys. Despite the fact that the law represents an egregious assault on women’s rights and wouldn’t look out of place in the stone age, you probably didn’t hear about it because self-proclaimed feminists were too busy concentrating on more pressing atrocities being inflicted upon women – such as people using the word “bossy”. http://www.infowars.com/new-iraqi-law-legalizes-rape-feminists-too-busy-banning-words-to-care/ http://www.infowars.com/new-iraqi-law-legalizes-rape-feminis...

chilldream 13y ago
I agree with the article, but "There are Starving Kids in Africa" is a stock bad argument
- chongli 13y ago
  Yep, it's a fallacy too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation
- iterationx 13y ago
  You missed the point of the article with your pointless nitpicking, so here it is, try again... That’s because second wave feminism is not about protecting women’s rights, it’s about stirring up a contrived gender war and impugning western culture, the middle class and the family unit as the source of all sexism and oppression, thereby making women more dependent on the government and hiding the true source of all oppression – the state.

wcummings 13y ago

I'm impressed by how much people are missing the point. It's just about raising awareness of how young girls are treated, no one is actually banning any words.

dkrich 13y ago
Then maybe they shouldn't have led with the name "Ban Bossy?" If you create a marketing campaign and it is misinterpreted by what is presumably largely your target group (men who don't realize their words are apparently harming girls during their formative years) the fault is yours, not your audience.

mildtrepidation 13y ago

From BanBossy.org: When a little boy asserts himself, he's called a “leader.” Yet when a little girl does the same, she risks being branded “bossy.” Words like bossy send a message: don't raise your hand or speak up. By middle school, girls are less interested in leading than boys—a trend that continues into adulthood. Together we can encourage girls to lead. So yes, as others have said here, the goal is not necessarily (or only) to get rid of the usage of the word. But as is very evident from other responses, that is not immediately obvious to everyone, in no small part because of the arguably poor catch phrase being used. I'm also not thrilled with some of the 'motivational' phrases being thrown around. "I'm not bossy; I'm the boss" (Beyonce) is not constructive. It's puerile and is more likely to encourage actual bossy behavior (the negative kind, as defined well elsewhere in this thread) than to help introduce equality in the way we encourage leadership attributes in all children. Not, of course, that equality seems to be emphasized here. Which is a typical problem and one that's unlikely to help this campaign make a real difference, as it's immediately exclusive to some degree rather than encouraging everyone to be confident.

cushychicken 13y ago

You can see how this campaign of proclaiming "bossy" to no longer be gender neutral has caused me (a heterosexual white male) some serious gender identity issues, as I was frequently called "bossy" as a child. Does this mean I'm actually a woman?

SnydenBitchy 13y ago

Wow, the “discussion” here validates every negative stereotype about the tech community, you troglodytes who I’m embarrassed to call my peers. I wonder if it’s it too late, at 31, for me to change careers?

masterleep 13y ago
Are there no online communities that you can't complain about?

droopybuns 13y ago

"The number one reason that why girls are not turning into leaders is because they are occupied with posting selfies on your fucking Facebook, Sandberg!" -Adam Curry

theorique 13y ago

"Bossy" doesn't refer to a person (male or female) who embodies good qualities of leadership. Instead, it is used to describe someone who takes charge in a rude and disrespectful way. Examples include: giving others orders, shouting, emotional manipulation, tantrums, and so forth. Anybody who behaves this way may be "leading", in some sense, but they are not being a very good leader. Conversely, a girl who leads her friends and peers in a kind and empowering way is not being bossy. It would make just as much sense have a campaign to "ban douchebag" or "ban asshole", as these terms are disproportionately applied to men. And those terms don't apply to being a leader, they apply to being a rude, disrespectful leader.