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> An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than ga
by skore 13y ago
> An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car. Also, all Tesla Model S vehicles are capable of over-the-air updates to upgrade the software, just like your phone or computer, so no visit to the service center is required for that either.
Gotta hand it to Musk - that's some smooth salestalk in what is supposed to be just voicing a public opinion against shady politics. I was halfway through the third sentence when I caught myself thinking - "indeed, that does sound like such a better dea--- Hey wait a minute!". Musk, you sneaky bastard! Never missing a chance to remind me why I want a dang tesla.
He is right and it's a terrific salespitch. That's the best kind of right.
- smacktoward 13y agoIt is a terrific salespitch, especially in how it raises the subject of OTA updates while adroitly waltzing you past the obvious worry that a poorly tested OTA update will brick your car.
- peeters 13y agoHow does the distribution mechanism in itself affect the quality? It's just a way of getting new software on the car. You can have the exact same standards of quality for an update installed over the air as one installed at a service centre.
- smackfu 13y agoThe easier it is to update software, the less important that it is bug-free.
- npizzolato 13y agoUntil that bug causes a car to drive unexpectedly into a wall in the interim time until you've sent out a patch. The importance of being bug-free is much more driven by the potential damage caused by a bug than how quickly you can update the software.
- GenerocUsername 13y agoFear monger. What if what if what if... I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just saying that possible new issues are no reason to persist the old issues
- throwaway2048 13y agoThis is utter nonsense, "possible new issues" are every reason to carefully evaluate and weight new options.
- sukuriant 13y agoNo. It's a car, and has the power to kill people on software malfunction, making it a critical system. Critical systems are tend to go through a much greater and more robust form of testing.
- stcredzero 13y agoThe destructive potential of a car exceeds that of a lot of handguns one can buy. There have long been techniques for writing software as formal proofs of correctness. As far as I can tell, they haven't been popular with mainstream programmers because they are simply too different.
- sukuriant 13y agoThat is a really neat bit of fact; but, what does that have to do with what I was talking about? I really would like to know, it sounds like a really important insight, I'm just not sure what train of thought led to that.
- Fomite 13y agoNo, but "Cars do uncomfortable things at high velocity" is not exactly an edge case.
- sliverstorm 13y agoRight. So, what happens when you are the one in that car, the car that teaches them better?
- MartinCron 13y agoI would say that the easier it is to update software, the more likely it is to be bug free. It's easier to test one change in isolation than to try to figure out which of these 20/200/2000 commits broke things.
- ssmoot 13y agoExcept at a service center there's presumably the opportunity to replace the firmware chip or board if they brick it during the update whereas a bad OTA update leaves you little option. OTOH I'd risk a bad OTA update 1% of the time if it meant avoiding the service center the other 99% of the time. And I'm sure a bad update is just a call and a tow away from a fix at a Tesla service center. Unless you're on a road-trip I guess.
- stcredzero 13y agoWith the march of Moore's Law, it should currently be feasible for automobile controllers to actually run under a kind of hypervisor and keep a copy of the old system so that it can roll back. (Including by request of the owner.)
- cjfont 13y agoYou might want to turn off updates during road trips.
- stcredzero 13y agoHow about registering your "garage coordinates" with your car's computer so that it can detect when you're on a road trip and give you the option of installing an update or not? (When you are stopped and have parked the car, of course.)
- samstave 13y ago
- rst 13y agoFor one thing, an OTA update mechanism is obviously more subject to third-party spoofing than an update delivered by physical ethernet from the dealership. (BTW, do Teslas apply OTA updates while the car is underway, or store them up for application when parked? If the former, then applying even a correct update to a car in motion could have all sorts of nasty consequences if it resulted in a sudden change to, say, response characteristics of the suspension or brakes.)
- peeters 13y agoIs that true though? I mean, in my mind OTA makes it a given that the firmware is going to be fully signed and the channel will be fully authenticated. Whereas if a dealer is installing it, they could dismiss concerns with "we trust our service technicians." Seems the latter opens the door to a lot of social engineering possibilities. But I was responding to a claim of the update being "poorly tested", not insecure. That's orthogonal to it being over the air. A poorly tested update delivered through a service center can also brick your car.
- GauntletWizard 13y agoI'm sorry, but no. No, most manufacturers update processes aren't actually secure in any meaningful way. Tesla's OTA process seems to use (I've not checked it myself) web standards, encryption, and signatures to verify that the OTA update is correct. The "Physical ethernet cable" that is used by traditional manufacturers can be done by any hobo on the street, in pretty much the same time. It's really only a matter of time before a script-kiddie-ready device that you plug-in and starts the car shows up; There's no security, no signature verification, etc. on the traditional manufacturers updates.
- oh_sigh 13y agoSource please regarding teslas OTA process.
- secabeen 13y agoHere's a pretty good summary from someone who sniffed the WiFi traffic from a Tesla doing an OTA update: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22294-Sniffing-the-WiFi-traffic http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22294-Sniffing...
- georgemcbay 13y ago> a poorly tested OTA update will brick your car This is possibly true (though I'd be surprised if they didn't have serious precautions in place to prevent a total firmware brick, even fairly cheap electronics are difficult to really brick these days, with multistage/multipartition bootloaders and such). However, given the amazingly large amount of costly meatspace work they would cause themselves by sending out an OTA that bricks cars, I'm sure they are well motivated to avoid that possibility.
- stcredzero 13y agoa poorly tested OTA update will brick your car It should be possible now to have a rollback function built into engine controllers.
- marssaxman 13y agoYeah. I am completely uninterested in owning a vehicle which is 0wned by the manufacturer.
- batoure 13y agowhats the difference? 20% of Americans lease their cars from manufacturers right now, when you lease something by its nature you don't own it. Another 60% make use of financing when they buy, in which case the bank owns your car. If you are trying to make an argument about control then make it and maybe give us some more information than just the conclusion of your thoughts.
- marssaxman 13y agoSorry if my reference was unclear - I meant "0wned" in the hacker sense, in that ultimate control rests not with you, the owner, but with the manufacturer, who in the case of Tesla can apparently just pump new code out which your car will install. That seems seriously creepy and weird to me. When I buy a car, its previous owner should have no further control over it. OTA updates for a car sound really wrong.
- sp332 13y agoHere is the changelog: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showwiki.php?title=Model%20S%20software%20firmware%20changelog http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showwiki.php?title=Model%20S%... These changes sound worthwhile to me, even if the mechanism is creepy.
- batoure 13y agoAlso just think; how long did it take for the first iphone jailbreaks to come out, cydia for your car. Alternately replaceable ROM's for your car a la android. Where there is a closed eco system there are 100 people just staring at their computers until they figure out how to break it wide open.
- 13y ago
- toomuchtodo 13y agoGM's latest recall (faulty ignition switch) killed 303 people and covers 1.6 millions vehicles; I think they'd love to have an OTA update method right now, even with the possibility of "bricking" the vehicle. http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-autos-303-deaths-linked-to-recall-gm-20140313,0,4720511.story http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-autos-303-dea...
- lifeisstillgood 13y agoA poorly performed service at a dealers will brick your car too. We trust the manufacturer to correctly service our cars, manually or OTA.
- stcredzero 13y agoAn even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service I am old enough to remember what owning a car was like when things were changing away from mechanical devices one could understand and tinker with and becoming nondescript hunks of plastic you had to buy from a manufacturer. (I'm talking about the ignition system, as one specific example.) There was always a bit of a sinking feeling for me along with a sense that the world was being dumbed down and manipulated for profit. As programmers and technical people, we should be able to see many parallels! That said, dumbing down the world in some ways is not necessarily a bad thing and can be exceedingly positive. One might miss the twisty, dusty country road in leisure time, but curse it when it's raining and the road has turned into an impassable morass. Reliable, boring, convenient transportation is great sometimes, like when you're driving someone going into labor to the hospital. Maintenance free electric cars that drive themselves will be one of those positive simplifying things.
- error54 13y agoFunny enough, quite a few programmers who have become burned out with the mainstream tech industry move into automotive related industries as cars are becoming more and more computer driven.
- stcredzero 13y agoI think I bought my "frugal-mobile" from one of them.
- wyager 13y agoI hope that emerging manufacturing technologies will allow what has happened to software over the last 25 years to happen to hardware over the next 25 years. It is possible to run a completely open software stack, and very easy to run an almost-completely open software stack. My hope is that open-source hardware (both electronic and mechanical) will be abundant enough in the future that I could feasibly fabricate a new ECU from scratch, or 3D print a new evaporator for my AC.
- 13y ago
- ssmoot 13y agoTesla's site is a bit frustrating. I get most of those same benefits driving a Nissan Leaf. So I'm not really interested in a "true cost" comparison to a gas vehicle I wouldn't be buying anyways. Turns out the Model S at $1,466 as optioned is more expensive than a Leaf. :) Not that I wouldn't kill for a 300 mile range...
- assholesRppl2 13y agodo you realize how much money you could make from networking opportunities that arise from driving around a Tesla? invest in your future
- stcredzero 13y agoTesla is the new Country Club membership? (They are also being granted as perks of employment.)
- poopsintub 13y agoAn old-man Jaguar costs a fraction of the price. Does a Model-S come with the country club membership? I'm in!
- stcredzero 13y agoDoes a Model-S come with the country club membership? I'm in! It's more likely to come with a hackerspace membership.
- jack-r-abbit 13y agoI'm sure the Leaf is a fine vehicle. But I see them directed at two different audiences. That logic would also question why get a Porsche 911 when you can get a VW Beetle for a fraction of the price? They are both German engineered gas vehicles, after all.
- Xylakant 13y ago
- mfrommil 13y agoDon't even have to call it a "salespitch". A good product will sell itself. And it's quite clear a Tesla is a good product.
- skore 13y agoPoint taken, but then again - it really is a salespitch in what is supposed to be a statement on a political issue.
- azernik 13y agoThe man is nothing if not a smooth salesperson.
- elwell 13y agoHe's done a very good job of spinning around the publicity for an improved public opinion of Tesla. Impressive.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]