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>If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer" I think that is the key problem. I don't know if it is just a western cultural issue but the association between so

by Edmond 13y ago

>If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer" I think that is the key problem. I don't know if it is just a western cultural issue but the association between social awkwardness and technical competence is the real problem. My personal experience is that if you don't fit that archetype people assume (erroneously) that you aren't technical enough. This is a problem not just affecting women but men as well, as someone who's highly technical but doesn't come across as "nerd/geek/gamer" people universally assume I am not as competent, sometimes even when undeniable evidence is present I get treated as a magician with a bag tricks :)

Crito 13y ago
I've seen friends get labeled "brogrammer" just because they wore polo shirts instead of t-shirts with gaming stuff printed on them, and because in university they belonged to a fraternity instead of the anime club. These people don't spend all day in the office doing kegstands, they work just as hard and just as effectively as anybody else, but they are derisively labeled "brogrammer" and the depth of their skill is routinely questioned. Above a certain age, 30-35 or so I'd estimate, not being "nerd/geek/gamer" seems to lose it's stigma as "family man" becomes a more common occurrence (but of course with that comes age discrimination). (I believe the tie-in to sexism is fairly complex. Selection for "nerd/gamer/programmer" probably causes a gender imbalance in the industry, but I think that genuine sexism and not just prejudice against lifestyles/fashions also plays an important role. Evening out the gender imbalance would likely have the effect of loosening prejudices against lifestyles/fashions, even if those prejudices were the cause of the gender imbalance in the first place. I believe the issues are related in a more complex manner than "one caused the other".)
- Torgo 13y ago
  You have talked about who is labeled a brogrammer, but can you clarify who is doing the calling? You seem to be saying it is the geeky types themselves. And where are you geographically, roughly? I am not in Silicon Valley. I spent the first 11 years of my career in the Midwest in the corporate world where you had to dress professionally, didn't get to put up posters in your cube or shoot each other with nerf guns, and sexual harassment would get you instafired. Being a "brogrammer" would not fly there. For the last couple years I am surrounded by "geek" types and can wear a t-shirt and jeans to work, but I still haven't seen any disdain for "non-geek" types. The only place I hear the term "brogrammer" is here, Twitter and a subset of the media, and it seems primarily by feminists/progressives. So my experience is quite different from yours. I am emphatically not saying it doesn't exist, I just wonder if it's a "thing" once you get beyond Silicon Valley/Mountain View/San Francisco.
  - Crito 13y ago
    I've noticed it primarily in SF and Seattle. I've seen it to a limited extent in Philadelphia, but it's been my observation that most tech jobs on the East Coast have sufficiently strict dress codes to make lifestyles/hobbies relatively non-apparent at first glance. (the limited extent that I witnessed it in Philadelphia was at a startup that I interviewed with. One of my "geek" friends warned me that the startup was filled with "brogrammers"). Although the term "brogrammer" was not invented yet, I also witnessed it in university on the East Coast, where CS kids in fraternities were frequently given a hard time by other CS students. It definitely is "geeks" doing most of the name calling, though the twitter/SJW sphere has certainly adopted and perpetuated it as well.

by Edmond 13y ago

Crito 13y ago

I've seen friends get labeled "brogrammer" just because they wore polo shirts instead of t-shirts with gaming stuff printed on them, and because in university they belonged to a fraternity instead of the anime club. These people don't spend all day in the office doing kegstands, they work just as hard and just as effectively as anybody else, but they are derisively labeled "brogrammer" and the depth of their skill is routinely questioned. Above a certain age, 30-35 or so I'd estimate, not being "nerd/geek/gamer" seems to lose it's stigma as "family man" becomes a more common occurrence (but of course with that comes age discrimination). (I believe the tie-in to sexism is fairly complex. Selection for "nerd/gamer/programmer" probably causes a gender imbalance in the industry, but I think that genuine sexism and not just prejudice against lifestyles/fashions also plays an important role. Evening out the gender imbalance would likely have the effect of loosening prejudices against lifestyles/fashions, even if those prejudices were the cause of the gender imbalance in the first place. I believe the issues are related in a more complex manner than "one caused the other".)

Torgo 13y ago
You have talked about who is labeled a brogrammer, but can you clarify who is doing the calling? You seem to be saying it is the geeky types themselves. And where are you geographically, roughly? I am not in Silicon Valley. I spent the first 11 years of my career in the Midwest in the corporate world where you had to dress professionally, didn't get to put up posters in your cube or shoot each other with nerf guns, and sexual harassment would get you instafired. Being a "brogrammer" would not fly there. For the last couple years I am surrounded by "geek" types and can wear a t-shirt and jeans to work, but I still haven't seen any disdain for "non-geek" types. The only place I hear the term "brogrammer" is here, Twitter and a subset of the media, and it seems primarily by feminists/progressives. So my experience is quite different from yours. I am emphatically not saying it doesn't exist, I just wonder if it's a "thing" once you get beyond Silicon Valley/Mountain View/San Francisco.
- Crito 13y ago
  I've noticed it primarily in SF and Seattle. I've seen it to a limited extent in Philadelphia, but it's been my observation that most tech jobs on the East Coast have sufficiently strict dress codes to make lifestyles/hobbies relatively non-apparent at first glance. (the limited extent that I witnessed it in Philadelphia was at a startup that I interviewed with. One of my "geek" friends warned me that the startup was filled with "brogrammers"). Although the term "brogrammer" was not invented yet, I also witnessed it in university on the East Coast, where CS kids in fraternities were frequently given a hard time by other CS students. It definitely is "geeks" doing most of the name calling, though the twitter/SJW sphere has certainly adopted and perpetuated it as well.