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I had a chance to talk to the undergraduate dean of SCS about #2. Essentially they found that "geekiness" (as he described it) had no correlation with performan

I had a chance to talk to the undergraduate dean of SCS about #2. Essentially they found that "geekiness" (as he described it) had no correlation with performance in the program, but a huge correlation with gender.

Zigurd 13y ago
Experience, if not geekiness, still counts. Lots of boys get into coding in high school, with or without formal training. My daughter, who is in SCS at CMU now, was fortunate to transfer from her high school to Mass Academy, adjacent to the WPI campus, where she took WPI's intro course that's somewhat SICP-based. I believe that helped significantly, compared to other women in SCS who are certainly intelligent and in all other ways capable enough, but were starting without experience, and hence without informed expectations of what they were about to embark upon. [EDIT:] The SCS curriculum is designed to minimize the academic effect of coming in "cold," and all majors, especially ones where outsiders have little notion of what's current have this risk, but there's still a relatively larger potential among women for the shock of not knowing what exactly you signed up for.
Crito 13y ago
I've recently been toying with the idea that the "brogrammer" trend is in reality little more than a term used to vilify male programmers who, more than anything else, share the common trait of having rejected "geek/nerd/gamer" culture or fashion. The term is male specific because female enrollment has been suppressed for the past few decades, making males the most prominent members of just about any fashion/culture trend in tech. The term has become synonymous with sexism because many (but by no means all, or even most) "brogrammers" are indeed sexist (as are other programmers). Because "brogrammers" are different, this sexism is recognized for what it is more frequently than sexism from "non-bro programmers" (who, for most programmers, are part of the in-group). If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer", I think that we might see the evaporation of the concept of "brogrammer" as a particularly problematic gender specific trend. (One of the assumptions that I make is that most people who are labeled as "brogrammers" by others do not self-identify as "brogrammers".)
- Edmond 13y ago
  >If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer" I think that is the key problem. I don't know if it is just a western cultural issue but the association between social awkwardness and technical competence is the real problem. My personal experience is that if you don't fit that archetype people assume (erroneously) that you aren't technical enough. This is a problem not just affecting women but men as well, as someone who's highly technical but doesn't come across as "nerd/geek/gamer" people universally assume I am not as competent, sometimes even when undeniable evidence is present I get treated as a magician with a bag tricks :)
  - Crito 13y ago
    I've seen friends get labeled "brogrammer" just because they wore polo shirts instead of t-shirts with gaming stuff printed on them, and because in university they belonged to a fraternity instead of the anime club. These people don't spend all day in the office doing kegstands, they work just as hard and just as effectively as anybody else, but they are derisively labeled "brogrammer" and the depth of their skill is routinely questioned. Above a certain age, 30-35 or so I'd estimate, not being "nerd/geek/gamer" seems to lose it's stigma as "family man" becomes a more common occurrence (but of course with that comes age discrimination). (I believe the tie-in to sexism is fairly complex. Selection for "nerd/gamer/programmer" probably causes a gender imbalance in the industry, but I think that genuine sexism and not just prejudice against lifestyles/fashions also plays an important role. Evening out the gender imbalance would likely have the effect of loosening prejudices against lifestyles/fashions, even if those prejudices were the cause of the gender imbalance in the first place. I believe the issues are related in a more complex manner than "one caused the other".)
    - Torgo 13y ago
      You have talked about who is labeled a brogrammer, but can you clarify who is doing the calling? You seem to be saying it is the geeky types themselves. And where are you geographically, roughly? I am not in Silicon Valley. I spent the first 11 years of my career in the Midwest in the corporate world where you had to dress professionally, didn't get to put up posters in your cube or shoot each other with nerf guns, and sexual harassment would get you instafired. Being a "brogrammer" would not fly there. For the last couple years I am surrounded by "geek" types and can wear a t-shirt and jeans to work, but I still haven't seen any disdain for "non-geek" types. The only place I hear the term "brogrammer" is here, Twitter and a subset of the media, and it seems primarily by feminists/progressives. So my experience is quite different from yours. I am emphatically not saying it doesn't exist, I just wonder if it's a "thing" once you get beyond Silicon Valley/Mountain View/San Francisco.
deleted 13y ago
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Zigurd 13y ago

Experience, if not geekiness, still counts. Lots of boys get into coding in high school, with or without formal training. My daughter, who is in SCS at CMU now, was fortunate to transfer from her high school to Mass Academy, adjacent to the WPI campus, where she took WPI's intro course that's somewhat SICP-based. I believe that helped significantly, compared to other women in SCS who are certainly intelligent and in all other ways capable enough, but were starting without experience, and hence without informed expectations of what they were about to embark upon. [EDIT:] The SCS curriculum is designed to minimize the academic effect of coming in "cold," and all majors, especially ones where outsiders have little notion of what's current have this risk, but there's still a relatively larger potential among women for the shock of not knowing what exactly you signed up for.

Crito 13y ago

I've recently been toying with the idea that the "brogrammer" trend is in reality little more than a term used to vilify male programmers who, more than anything else, share the common trait of having rejected "geek/nerd/gamer" culture or fashion. The term is male specific because female enrollment has been suppressed for the past few decades, making males the most prominent members of just about any fashion/culture trend in tech. The term has become synonymous with sexism because many (but by no means all, or even most) "brogrammers" are indeed sexist (as are other programmers). Because "brogrammers" are different, this sexism is recognized for what it is more frequently than sexism from "non-bro programmers" (who, for most programmers, are part of the in-group). If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer", I think that we might see the evaporation of the concept of "brogrammer" as a particularly problematic gender specific trend. (One of the assumptions that I make is that most people who are labeled as "brogrammers" by others do not self-identify as "brogrammers".)

Edmond 13y ago
>If we stop selecting for "geek/nerd/gamer" I think that is the key problem. I don't know if it is just a western cultural issue but the association between social awkwardness and technical competence is the real problem. My personal experience is that if you don't fit that archetype people assume (erroneously) that you aren't technical enough. This is a problem not just affecting women but men as well, as someone who's highly technical but doesn't come across as "nerd/geek/gamer" people universally assume I am not as competent, sometimes even when undeniable evidence is present I get treated as a magician with a bag tricks :)
- Crito 13y ago
  I've seen friends get labeled "brogrammer" just because they wore polo shirts instead of t-shirts with gaming stuff printed on them, and because in university they belonged to a fraternity instead of the anime club. These people don't spend all day in the office doing kegstands, they work just as hard and just as effectively as anybody else, but they are derisively labeled "brogrammer" and the depth of their skill is routinely questioned. Above a certain age, 30-35 or so I'd estimate, not being "nerd/geek/gamer" seems to lose it's stigma as "family man" becomes a more common occurrence (but of course with that comes age discrimination). (I believe the tie-in to sexism is fairly complex. Selection for "nerd/gamer/programmer" probably causes a gender imbalance in the industry, but I think that genuine sexism and not just prejudice against lifestyles/fashions also plays an important role. Evening out the gender imbalance would likely have the effect of loosening prejudices against lifestyles/fashions, even if those prejudices were the cause of the gender imbalance in the first place. I believe the issues are related in a more complex manner than "one caused the other".)
  - Torgo 13y ago
    You have talked about who is labeled a brogrammer, but can you clarify who is doing the calling? You seem to be saying it is the geeky types themselves. And where are you geographically, roughly? I am not in Silicon Valley. I spent the first 11 years of my career in the Midwest in the corporate world where you had to dress professionally, didn't get to put up posters in your cube or shoot each other with nerf guns, and sexual harassment would get you instafired. Being a "brogrammer" would not fly there. For the last couple years I am surrounded by "geek" types and can wear a t-shirt and jeans to work, but I still haven't seen any disdain for "non-geek" types. The only place I hear the term "brogrammer" is here, Twitter and a subset of the media, and it seems primarily by feminists/progressives. So my experience is quite different from yours. I am emphatically not saying it doesn't exist, I just wonder if it's a "thing" once you get beyond Silicon Valley/Mountain View/San Francisco.

deleted 13y ago

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