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Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churc

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

abstractbill 17y ago
I would love to know the real answer to this. I suspect it has something to do with how easy it is to form a church here and get it tax-exempt status (I have no experience in this area of course, but from what I've heard it's much easier in the US than it is in Europe).
- ShabbyDoo 17y ago
  The existence of store-front churches supports your assertion.
- noss 17y ago
  ShabbyDoo is definitely onto something with his guess that European government-connected churches market themselves less. From what I understand you will be quite left-out of society in most of US if you don't go to church. Here in Sweden, as a member of church, you can have funerals, marriages and baptising at church, but the church will never really bother you to come to the Sunday service. The Swedish church was slightly decoupled from the government a number of years ago, but fees from members are still collected by the tax office, something like half a percent at most, it varies by region (diocese?). Also, members of the Swedish church get to participate in elections for the primary positions. See http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/default.aspx?di=272326 http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/default.aspx?di=272326 I don't know if that happens for US churches. Mormons and other US free-churches do come here and have head quarters. I find that they pray on the poor and unfortunate ones by knocking doors and stopping people on the streets to offer their solutions. They're very much considered fringe groups though, since the Swedish church is so much moderate and yet provide ceremonies that are in demand even in the world's most secularized country.
  - pyre 17y ago
    > From what I understand you will be quite left-out of society in most of US if you don't go to church. Here in Sweden, as a member of church, you can have funerals, marriages and baptising at church, but the church will never really bother you to come to the Sunday service. Not really. I don't. Maybe you're talking about people that belong to a particular church being pressured into regular attendance? But I belong to no church and even when I have in the past the only times I went regularly were when I was forced to as a child. {edit} Maybe I've just managed to avoid areas like this but I've lived in the Detroit, Portland and Toronto (Canada, which I guess doesn't count). {/edit}
kragen 17y ago
Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? People whose religion is sincere will inevitably come into conflict with religious and secular authorities from time to time. Over several centuries, most of them left Europe and went to the US, where there were no religious authorities, and the secular authorities were much more hands-off. It's not particularly surprising that their descendants still take religion seriously.
- abstractbill 17y ago
  I sometimes joke that we (the British) sent all our criminals to Australia and all our puritans to America, and of course there's some amount of historical truth to this. So if the Americans remain fervently religious, why isn't Australia really a nation of criminals today?
  - donw 17y ago
    Beer.
  - nvn1 17y ago
    Perhaps the causes or whatever drives people to be religious or criminal are not the same? Perhaps removing criminals from British society was enough to 'reform' a lot of them.The puritans chose to go to the US, I believe. If we had sent all the criminals to the US and all the puritans to Australia then perhaps the results would have been switched.
    - dmm 17y ago
      A lot of the "criminals" were really just poor people and the puritans chose to go the US largely because nobody in Europe wanted them around.
  - Semiapies 17y ago
    That's because folks forget that Puritans were just one of a number of oppressed religious groups in England who shipped out to the colonies - or, for that matter, that Georgia was a penal colony, too. It's always strange and interesting to hear people harp on one particular minority group of colonists as exemplars. Contemporary conservative religious groups have little or no connection to Puritanism at all.
euroclydon 17y ago
Just a guess, but since we've always disallowed a state endorsed church, we have never been subject to a totally perverted church which is as powerful as the government or inseparable from the government. In fact, many churches here paint themselves as oppressed by government. Churches simply don't have long powerful tentacles here, like they had through much of European history.
philwelch 17y ago
The US is overall a more religious country. Part of it is historical--Europe shipped all their religious fanatics over here, so they were left with the boring state-sponsored churches like the Catholics and Anglicans. America also has a long history of cyclical religious revivals.
Dauntless 17y ago
When I've been to USA I was surprised how much religion is used as a business (not that they say that themselves), "free market" churches are much more radical and aggressive in nature and marketing. Also, "churches" in Europe are hardly that active and much more tolerant and unintrusive.
Luff 17y ago
Just speculation without any data to back it up: * A selling point of America in the beginning was freedom of religion. * A lot of people were killed off in WW2 because of their religion, and I wouldn't be surprised if many lost their faith because of the deeds committed under these times. (made it hard to believe in a benevolent God with a plan) * A big catchphrase of the socialist movement was "Religion is the opiate of the people".
frossie 17y ago
Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? It comes down to optimism again I think. A European devout Christian would certainly pray for their sick child - but they would not expect their prayer to be necessarily answered, so they would also take the kid to the doctor. If the doctor cured the child, they may attribute the good luck to a form of divine intervention whose instrument was the doctor. The problem in the US is that many local forms of Christianity have set themselves in opposition to science - either/or - and so the doctors are not instruments of God but His antagonists. I don't have a really good explanation as to how this came about.

abstractbill 17y ago

I would love to know the real answer to this. I suspect it has something to do with how easy it is to form a church here and get it tax-exempt status (I have no experience in this area of course, but from what I've heard it's much easier in the US than it is in Europe).

ShabbyDoo 17y ago
The existence of store-front churches supports your assertion.
noss 17y ago
ShabbyDoo is definitely onto something with his guess that European government-connected churches market themselves less. From what I understand you will be quite left-out of society in most of US if you don't go to church. Here in Sweden, as a member of church, you can have funerals, marriages and baptising at church, but the church will never really bother you to come to the Sunday service. The Swedish church was slightly decoupled from the government a number of years ago, but fees from members are still collected by the tax office, something like half a percent at most, it varies by region (diocese?). Also, members of the Swedish church get to participate in elections for the primary positions. See http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/default.aspx?di=272326 http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/default.aspx?di=272326 I don't know if that happens for US churches. Mormons and other US free-churches do come here and have head quarters. I find that they pray on the poor and unfortunate ones by knocking doors and stopping people on the streets to offer their solutions. They're very much considered fringe groups though, since the Swedish church is so much moderate and yet provide ceremonies that are in demand even in the world's most secularized country.
- pyre 17y ago
  > From what I understand you will be quite left-out of society in most of US if you don't go to church. Here in Sweden, as a member of church, you can have funerals, marriages and baptising at church, but the church will never really bother you to come to the Sunday service. Not really. I don't. Maybe you're talking about people that belong to a particular church being pressured into regular attendance? But I belong to no church and even when I have in the past the only times I went regularly were when I was forced to as a child. {edit} Maybe I've just managed to avoid areas like this but I've lived in the Detroit, Portland and Toronto (Canada, which I guess doesn't count). {/edit}

kragen 17y ago

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? People whose religion is sincere will inevitably come into conflict with religious and secular authorities from time to time. Over several centuries, most of them left Europe and went to the US, where there were no religious authorities, and the secular authorities were much more hands-off. It's not particularly surprising that their descendants still take religion seriously.

abstractbill 17y ago
I sometimes joke that we (the British) sent all our criminals to Australia and all our puritans to America, and of course there's some amount of historical truth to this. So if the Americans remain fervently religious, why isn't Australia really a nation of criminals today?
- donw 17y ago
  Beer.
- nvn1 17y ago
  Perhaps the causes or whatever drives people to be religious or criminal are not the same? Perhaps removing criminals from British society was enough to 'reform' a lot of them.The puritans chose to go to the US, I believe. If we had sent all the criminals to the US and all the puritans to Australia then perhaps the results would have been switched.
  - dmm 17y ago
    A lot of the "criminals" were really just poor people and the puritans chose to go the US largely because nobody in Europe wanted them around.
- Semiapies 17y ago
  That's because folks forget that Puritans were just one of a number of oppressed religious groups in England who shipped out to the colonies - or, for that matter, that Georgia was a penal colony, too. It's always strange and interesting to hear people harp on one particular minority group of colonists as exemplars. Contemporary conservative religious groups have little or no connection to Puritanism at all.

euroclydon 17y ago

Just a guess, but since we've always disallowed a state endorsed church, we have never been subject to a totally perverted church which is as powerful as the government or inseparable from the government. In fact, many churches here paint themselves as oppressed by government. Churches simply don't have long powerful tentacles here, like they had through much of European history.

philwelch 17y ago

The US is overall a more religious country. Part of it is historical--Europe shipped all their religious fanatics over here, so they were left with the boring state-sponsored churches like the Catholics and Anglicans. America also has a long history of cyclical religious revivals.

Dauntless 17y ago

When I've been to USA I was surprised how much religion is used as a business (not that they say that themselves), "free market" churches are much more radical and aggressive in nature and marketing. Also, "churches" in Europe are hardly that active and much more tolerant and unintrusive.

Luff 17y ago

Just speculation without any data to back it up: * A selling point of America in the beginning was freedom of religion. * A lot of people were killed off in WW2 because of their religion, and I wouldn't be surprised if many lost their faith because of the deeds committed under these times. (made it hard to believe in a benevolent God with a plan) * A big catchphrase of the socialist movement was "Religion is the opiate of the people".

frossie 17y ago

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? It comes down to optimism again I think. A European devout Christian would certainly pray for their sick child - but they would not expect their prayer to be necessarily answered, so they would also take the kid to the doctor. If the doctor cured the child, they may attribute the good luck to a form of divine intervention whose instrument was the doctor. The problem in the US is that many local forms of Christianity have set themselves in opposition to science - either/or - and so the doctors are not instruments of God but His antagonists. I don't have a really good explanation as to how this came about.