It's a general problem with poor programming practices. When you see people subclassing controllers to modify behaviour, it's clear something went wrong. On the

It's a general problem with poor programming practices. When you see people subclassing controllers to modify behaviour, it's clear something went wrong. On the other hand, splitting out your business logic (which should take clean data structures) and putting your persistence system in its own layer, you get a clean, decoupled system, which you may or may not reuse elsewhere, but that is certainly easier to understand and test than when "good design" means accessing the database in a controller or in a view. Framework or no framework, you'll get the same design from programmers who stare blankly when somebody says "separation of concerns".