4 ms·

Women in Computing: The Night I was the Belle of the Ball

29 points by rachellaw 13y ago

vezzy-fnord 13y ago
[referring to Assembly] I told him that couldn't be true because it's not even human readable. Not sure if this is meant to be a joke. If not, what? I mean, perhaps you could say that for your compiler output, but otherwise...? Otherwise, I sympathized with her story, although the rather tired "Where did all the good men go?" ending wasn't particularly apt. Still, this is a Jezebel story. For the penultimate postmodern feminist trash rag, it isn't that bad.
- sounds 13y ago
  I'm not sure how to respond to the Assembly nitpick but if Jezebel wants to post this article, it's fine with me. (Just because an online publication frequently publishes stuff I don't read does not imply that I should not read the one good one they publish.) Further, what's wrong with feminism?
  - johnbm 13y ago
    Claiming to be about equality while advocating for privileged treatment for years. Like NOW opposing default shared custody, pushing the lie that domestic violence is overwhelmingly men hitting women, denying men support and services, promoting the moral panic of "rape culture" at colleges, giving mothers choice while denying fathers any say (under the guise of "the child's interests"), ... It's a self contradictory ideology that claims women are equal and that's why they have no agency, cannot be held responsible for their actions and need hand outs. "1 in 4 women is raped" was a fabrication by Mary Koss. "Only 2% of all rape accusations are false" was an anecdote from a Susan Brownmiller book.
    - jarrett 13y ago
      That's a lot of loaded political claims without supporting evidence. > NOW opposing default shared custody Are you implying that, absent default shared custody, family law is discriminatory towards men? If so, what evidence do you have of that claim? > pushing the lie that domestic violence is overwhelmingly men hitting women Who's saying that? Further, how do you know it's not the case? Domestic violence is notoriously hard to measure. You sound much more confident in your conclusion that scientific community is in their tentative findings about domestic violence rates. > denying men support and services That's awfully vague. Can you point to a pattern of anti-male gender discrimination by a particular organization, company, or government agency? > promoting the moral panic of "rape culture" at colleges Rapes are definitely committed at colleges. We can't know the exact rates for sure, because we don't know what percentage of rapes are ever reported. What evidence do you have that claims about college rape are overblown? > giving mothers choice while denying fathers any say (under the guise of "the child's interests") What choices are you referring to? Are you suggesting that a father should be able to either veto or impose an abortion? > why they have no agency, cannot be held responsible for their actions and need hand outs. Who's saying that? Based on my experience with feminist writings, I think you're attacking a straw man. > "1 in 4 women is raped" was a fabrication by Mary Koss. "Only 2% of all rape accusations are false" was an anecdote from a Susan Brownmiller book. We don't know those claims to be false. Still, one can fairly criticize a commentator for putting forth a claim without adequate data to support it, even if the underlying claim may be true. I won't purport to know whether Mary Koss or Susan Brownmiller had adequate data, nor have I looked up whether they made those claims at all. But even if one or two commentators made an unproven claim, that fact cannot be the basis for an attack on a much larger movement.
      - johnbm 13y ago
        It absolutely can be an attack on a much larger movement because those statistics are cited over and over and over again in said movement. Similarly, the Duluth model has directly shaped domestic violence policy and support despite being contradicted by any study that asked the same questions of women and men. When said movement further has an absolute monopoly on the gender discussion and has been known to politically pressure the media to suppress dissent (see: Warren Farrell), I'm pretty happy in just stating the actual facts and letting someone else do the googling for a change.
    - MichaelDickens 13y ago
      On rape accusations: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-social-media-part-5-of-%E2%88%9E/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-so... TLDR: About 20% (with a wide margin of error) of rape accusations are false. > "1 in 4 women is raped" was a fabrication by Mary Koss. Not entirely. According to a CDC report (http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a...), 1 in 3 women have experienced rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner. That said, some have criticized this report for taking too broad a definition, e.g. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cdc-study-on-sexual-violence-in-the-us-overstates-the-problem/2012/01/25/gIQAHRKPWQ_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cdc-study-on-sexual-v...).
      - jarrett 13y ago
        > TLDR: About 20% (with a wide margin of error) of rape accusations are false. That's not an accurate summary of the linked article's conclusions. It makes no conclusion about the percentage of accusations that are false. Rather, it takes as a seemingly arbitrary premise that 8% of accusations are false. From the article: > Lisak lists seven studies he considers credible, which find false accusation rates of 2.1%, 2.5%, 3.0%, 5.9%, 6.8%, 8.3%, 10.3%, 10.9%....We will stick with the article’s figure of 84,000 reported rapes per year and 8% false accusation rate, for a total of 6,750 falsely accused. The article's conclusion is actually about the chance that any particular man will be falsely accused in his lifetime. I can't say whether that particular conclusion is accurate. I can only observe that it is meaningless unless one accepts the 8% assumption. Which is rather suspect, considering it appears to have been cherry-picked from amongst the seven studies the author referenced.
        MichaelDickens 13y ago
        Ah, thanks for the correction. I haven't read the article in a while and I just glanced back through it. > Which is rather suspect, considering it appears to have been cherry-picked from amongst the seven studies the author referenced. It's near the middle of the range, though (a bit on the high end), so it seems like a reasonable assumption.
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    Further, what's wrong with feminism? What does this question have to do with my comment? I don't have time to write a book, but like all ideologies, feminism has pros and cons. Feminism is not a monolithic godlike omnibenevolent movement for social equality like some people like to believe, it's divided into plenty schools of thought, each having their own particular strengths and weaknesses, some more moderate and others more extreme. Regardless of where you stand on the topic, you don't need to be an anti-feminist to dislike Jezebel.
    - pseut 13y ago
      I assume it's referring to the gratuitous insult that you ended your first comment with.
      - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
        Which I do not see how it was critical of feminism as a whole, it was directed at Jezebel in particular, and perhaps more broadly it could be extrapolated to postmodern feminism, which I disagree with, indeed.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    >Further, what's wrong with feminism? In simplistic terms on HN and in society in general, there are approximately two working definitions of feminism: 1. Women and men are different [1], but are equal in person-hood and should be treated the same. 2. Women and men are different [1], but are equal in person-hood and should be treated the same, but in areas where women have a record of being discriminated against they should be thoughtfully promoted (aka. what opponents call "reverse discrimination") [1]: Statistically (thus exceptions) and biologically, but usually in ways that don't matter to the situation at hand. Without taking sides, you can see that 2 upsets a lot of people. For example a female only code-a-thon, is "OK" but a male code-a-thon would outrageous. Lack of 2 upsets other people as they perceive it takes more than passive fairness of overcome a social biases. Personally, I agree with both to a limited extent and attempt to balance them based on the circumstance.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
peterwwillis 13y ago
So, to begin to explain how those sweet guys from the dance turned into the guys you're meeting now: Instead, I get guys who deny that I can be smart or capable They probably have had no exposure to intelligent women, or women who code. They've built up a stereotype in their head and your mere existence is putting it into question, so they go into denial. guys who like how smart I am but try to get me fired if I won't go out with them Manipulative and insecure? Psychological issues with women, probably preying on any women they meet. guys who refuse to interview me for jobs that I'm overqualified for and push me towards jobs that are more typical for women I'm not sure what jobs are typical for women, but i've seen a lot of men pushed away from jobs if they're overqualified, for a number of reasons. Still, if this was just sexism at work, it points to more insecurity or lack of exposure to smart women who code. guys who dangle new language carrots in front of me until a guy comes along to give it to I don't know what this means? guys who make it clear in my interviews that they felt that they needed to interview at least one woman Oh, heh, that's a fun one. It works well on women because discriminating against women isn't as stigmatized as discriminating against black people. guys who test me on my video game knowledge in interviews This could be just to tell how much of a nerd/geek you are. Could work in your favor if you show them how passionate you are about technology or having fun? guys who call me a fake geek girl Back to the first example, probably had no exposure to women who were smart or coded, and react to their stereotypes coming into question by shielding themselves in denial. guys who tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to wear that shirt with that famous programmer who knows who I am Again an example of the fake-geek-girl-denial. Or just someone who hates that famous programmer? (I would probably pay someone to burn their RMS or ESR t-shirt, unless they were being ironic) guys telling me that it's impossible for me to be a nerd because I didn't pay my dues by being friendless except for my D&D buddies Oh, how the jaded lonely nerd doth protest too much! Male nerds that have style or lots of sexual partners or some other qualification of "a cool person with friends" get the same shit, but you probably get the extra burden of expectation of gender roles, in that women are expected to socialize more freely than men. Honestly, I don't get the draw of the typical "nerdy guy". They're kind of a pile of social and emotional problems and focus too much on one kind of hobby versus expanding their horizons. And they look like slobs. Why not find yourself a nice surfer with tattoos who writes poetry?
- 13y ago
Mz 13y ago
Excerpt: Instead, I get guys who deny that I can be smart or capable; guys who like how smart I am but try to get me fired if I won't go out with them I think that is likely the essence of The Glass Ceiling. And it sucks.

29 points by rachellaw 13y ago

[referring to Assembly] I told him that couldn't be true because it's not even human readable. Not sure if this is meant to be a joke. If not, what? I mean, perhaps you could say that for your compiler output, but otherwise...? Otherwise, I sympathized with her story, although the rather tired "Where did all the good men go?" ending wasn't particularly apt. Still, this is a Jezebel story. For the penultimate postmodern feminist trash rag, it isn't that bad.

sounds 13y ago
I'm not sure how to respond to the Assembly nitpick but if Jezebel wants to post this article, it's fine with me. (Just because an online publication frequently publishes stuff I don't read does not imply that I should not read the one good one they publish.) Further, what's wrong with feminism?
- johnbm 13y ago
  Claiming to be about equality while advocating for privileged treatment for years. Like NOW opposing default shared custody, pushing the lie that domestic violence is overwhelmingly men hitting women, denying men support and services, promoting the moral panic of "rape culture" at colleges, giving mothers choice while denying fathers any say (under the guise of "the child's interests"), ... It's a self contradictory ideology that claims women are equal and that's why they have no agency, cannot be held responsible for their actions and need hand outs. "1 in 4 women is raped" was a fabrication by Mary Koss. "Only 2% of all rape accusations are false" was an anecdote from a Susan Brownmiller book.
  - jarrett 13y ago
    That's a lot of loaded political claims without supporting evidence. > NOW opposing default shared custody Are you implying that, absent default shared custody, family law is discriminatory towards men? If so, what evidence do you have of that claim? > pushing the lie that domestic violence is overwhelmingly men hitting women Who's saying that? Further, how do you know it's not the case? Domestic violence is notoriously hard to measure. You sound much more confident in your conclusion that scientific community is in their tentative findings about domestic violence rates. > denying men support and services That's awfully vague. Can you point to a pattern of anti-male gender discrimination by a particular organization, company, or government agency? > promoting the moral panic of "rape culture" at colleges Rapes are definitely committed at colleges. We can't know the exact rates for sure, because we don't know what percentage of rapes are ever reported. What evidence do you have that claims about college rape are overblown? > giving mothers choice while denying fathers any say (under the guise of "the child's interests") What choices are you referring to? Are you suggesting that a father should be able to either veto or impose an abortion? > why they have no agency, cannot be held responsible for their actions and need hand outs. Who's saying that? Based on my experience with feminist writings, I think you're attacking a straw man. > "1 in 4 women is raped" was a fabrication by Mary Koss. "Only 2% of all rape accusations are false" was an anecdote from a Susan Brownmiller book. We don't know those claims to be false. Still, one can fairly criticize a commentator for putting forth a claim without adequate data to support it, even if the underlying claim may be true. I won't purport to know whether Mary Koss or Susan Brownmiller had adequate data, nor have I looked up whether they made those claims at all. But even if one or two commentators made an unproven claim, that fact cannot be the basis for an attack on a much larger movement.
    - johnbm 13y ago
      It absolutely can be an attack on a much larger movement because those statistics are cited over and over and over again in said movement. Similarly, the Duluth model has directly shaped domestic violence policy and support despite being contradicted by any study that asked the same questions of women and men. When said movement further has an absolute monopoly on the gender discussion and has been known to politically pressure the media to suppress dissent (see: Warren Farrell), I'm pretty happy in just stating the actual facts and letting someone else do the googling for a change.
  - MichaelDickens 13y ago
    On rape accusations: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-social-media-part-5-of-%E2%88%9E/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-so... TLDR: About 20% (with a wide margin of error) of rape accusations are false. > "1 in 4 women is raped" was a fabrication by Mary Koss. Not entirely. According to a CDC report (http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a...), 1 in 3 women have experienced rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner. That said, some have criticized this report for taking too broad a definition, e.g. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cdc-study-on-sexual-violence-in-the-us-overstates-the-problem/2012/01/25/gIQAHRKPWQ_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cdc-study-on-sexual-v...).
    - jarrett 13y ago
      > TLDR: About 20% (with a wide margin of error) of rape accusations are false. That's not an accurate summary of the linked article's conclusions. It makes no conclusion about the percentage of accusations that are false. Rather, it takes as a seemingly arbitrary premise that 8% of accusations are false. From the article: > Lisak lists seven studies he considers credible, which find false accusation rates of 2.1%, 2.5%, 3.0%, 5.9%, 6.8%, 8.3%, 10.3%, 10.9%....We will stick with the article’s figure of 84,000 reported rapes per year and 8% false accusation rate, for a total of 6,750 falsely accused. The article's conclusion is actually about the chance that any particular man will be falsely accused in his lifetime. I can't say whether that particular conclusion is accurate. I can only observe that it is meaningless unless one accepts the 8% assumption. Which is rather suspect, considering it appears to have been cherry-picked from amongst the seven studies the author referenced.
      - MichaelDickens 13y ago
        Ah, thanks for the correction. I haven't read the article in a while and I just glanced back through it. > Which is rather suspect, considering it appears to have been cherry-picked from amongst the seven studies the author referenced. It's near the middle of the range, though (a bit on the high end), so it seems like a reasonable assumption.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Further, what's wrong with feminism? What does this question have to do with my comment? I don't have time to write a book, but like all ideologies, feminism has pros and cons. Feminism is not a monolithic godlike omnibenevolent movement for social equality like some people like to believe, it's divided into plenty schools of thought, each having their own particular strengths and weaknesses, some more moderate and others more extreme. Regardless of where you stand on the topic, you don't need to be an anti-feminist to dislike Jezebel.
  - pseut 13y ago
    I assume it's referring to the gratuitous insult that you ended your first comment with.
    - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
      Which I do not see how it was critical of feminism as a whole, it was directed at Jezebel in particular, and perhaps more broadly it could be extrapolated to postmodern feminism, which I disagree with, indeed.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- voidlogic 13y ago
  >Further, what's wrong with feminism? In simplistic terms on HN and in society in general, there are approximately two working definitions of feminism: 1. Women and men are different [1], but are equal in person-hood and should be treated the same. 2. Women and men are different [1], but are equal in person-hood and should be treated the same, but in areas where women have a record of being discriminated against they should be thoughtfully promoted (aka. what opponents call "reverse discrimination") [1]: Statistically (thus exceptions) and biologically, but usually in ways that don't matter to the situation at hand. Without taking sides, you can see that 2 upsets a lot of people. For example a female only code-a-thon, is "OK" but a male code-a-thon would outrageous. Lack of 2 upsets other people as they perceive it takes more than passive fairness of overcome a social biases. Personally, I agree with both to a limited extent and attempt to balance them based on the circumstance.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

peterwwillis 13y ago

So, to begin to explain how those sweet guys from the dance turned into the guys you're meeting now: Instead, I get guys who deny that I can be smart or capable They probably have had no exposure to intelligent women, or women who code. They've built up a stereotype in their head and your mere existence is putting it into question, so they go into denial. guys who like how smart I am but try to get me fired if I won't go out with them Manipulative and insecure? Psychological issues with women, probably preying on any women they meet. guys who refuse to interview me for jobs that I'm overqualified for and push me towards jobs that are more typical for women I'm not sure what jobs are typical for women, but i've seen a lot of men pushed away from jobs if they're overqualified, for a number of reasons. Still, if this was just sexism at work, it points to more insecurity or lack of exposure to smart women who code. guys who dangle new language carrots in front of me until a guy comes along to give it to I don't know what this means? guys who make it clear in my interviews that they felt that they needed to interview at least one woman Oh, heh, that's a fun one. It works well on women because discriminating against women isn't as stigmatized as discriminating against black people. guys who test me on my video game knowledge in interviews This could be just to tell how much of a nerd/geek you are. Could work in your favor if you show them how passionate you are about technology or having fun? guys who call me a fake geek girl Back to the first example, probably had no exposure to women who were smart or coded, and react to their stereotypes coming into question by shielding themselves in denial. guys who tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to wear that shirt with that famous programmer who knows who I am Again an example of the fake-geek-girl-denial. Or just someone who hates that famous programmer? (I would probably pay someone to burn their RMS or ESR t-shirt, unless they were being ironic) guys telling me that it's impossible for me to be a nerd because I didn't pay my dues by being friendless except for my D&D buddies Oh, how the jaded lonely nerd doth protest too much! Male nerds that have style or lots of sexual partners or some other qualification of "a cool person with friends" get the same shit, but you probably get the extra burden of expectation of gender roles, in that women are expected to socialize more freely than men. Honestly, I don't get the draw of the typical "nerdy guy". They're kind of a pile of social and emotional problems and focus too much on one kind of hobby versus expanding their horizons. And they look like slobs. Why not find yourself a nice surfer with tattoos who writes poetry?

13y ago

Mz 13y ago

Excerpt: Instead, I get guys who deny that I can be smart or capable; guys who like how smart I am but try to get me fired if I won't go out with them I think that is likely the essence of The Glass Ceiling. And it sucks.