3 ms·

I don't know, nowadays it seems that if you look hard enough you can find published papers demonstrating any point, and it seems even easier to find paper "prov

by gbog 13y ago

I don't know, nowadays it seems that if you look hard enough you can find published papers demonstrating any point, and it seems even easier to find paper "proving" something against common sense and experience. Here it is the case: My Chinese wife is a perfect French speaker but she still can't hear or pronounce the difference between "gato" and "cado". I work in Chinese, in a 100% immersion, and tones are still not natural to me. And our bi-cultural kid, at 3, has better tones than me, and has no problem with d and t, or g and k. I won't look hard for papers but I would be surprised if none has ever "proven" that babies hear and execute the full palette of sounds, and learning a language specializes (by narrowing) this skill, removing parts not used in the context to differenciate meanings.

pessimizer 13y ago
>if you look hard enough you can find published papers demonstrating any point Don't be willing to make an argument against all science while trying to win one discussion. Just give your anecdote and let people take it as they will.
troydj 13y ago
Part of the confusion, I think, is that people unnecessarily require "perfect pronunciation, hearing, and intonation" in their definition of "fluency". You mentioned that your wife is fluent in French, but does not have native-like French "hearing". Perhaps she also speaks with a non-native accent. That doesn't detract from her fluency. Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example, would be considered to be fluent in English even though he speaks with a heavy accent. Babies and pre-pubescent children do indeed have a distinct advantage when it comes to learning sounds, tones, and pronunciation for a language [1][2]. It's also been observed that children are more likely to sound native (in language 2) if they move to another country and learn that second language prior to puberty (see again, Nagle [2]). So, gbog, if your child speaks/hears French, Chinese, and English regularly before hitting puberty, he/she will likely sound native in all three languages. But this advantage doesn't nullify the claim that adult learners can still become fluent in a foreign language. It just means that adult learners might never sound exactly like a native speaker, even though motivated learners can achieve near-native pronunciation in their target language [3]. [1] Babies are born with the ability to hear/distinguish between the sounds of all world languages, but this ability starts to diminish around the age of 10 months (pp 39-40, The Bilingual Edge, King and Mackey, http://www.amazon.com/The-Bilingual-Edge-Second-Language/dp/0061246565 http://www.amazon.com/The-Bilingual-Edge-Second-Language/dp/...). [2] "Critical period research clearly demonstrates that the probability of a near-native L2 phonology rapidly diminishes as we age", Charles Nagle, "A Reexamination of Ultimate Attainment in L2 Phonology: Length of Immersion, Motivation, and Phonological Short-Term Memory", http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf [3] "The results of this study highlight the fact that learners appear to be able to achieve near-native pronunciation without significant formal instruction in pronunciation which perhaps also evidences the role of implicit learning in L2 phonology...", Nagle, http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf

by gbog 13y ago

pessimizer 13y ago

>if you look hard enough you can find published papers demonstrating any point Don't be willing to make an argument against all science while trying to win one discussion. Just give your anecdote and let people take it as they will.

troydj 13y ago

Part of the confusion, I think, is that people unnecessarily require "perfect pronunciation, hearing, and intonation" in their definition of "fluency". You mentioned that your wife is fluent in French, but does not have native-like French "hearing". Perhaps she also speaks with a non-native accent. That doesn't detract from her fluency. Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example, would be considered to be fluent in English even though he speaks with a heavy accent. Babies and pre-pubescent children do indeed have a distinct advantage when it comes to learning sounds, tones, and pronunciation for a language [1][2]. It's also been observed that children are more likely to sound native (in language 2) if they move to another country and learn that second language prior to puberty (see again, Nagle [2]). So, gbog, if your child speaks/hears French, Chinese, and English regularly before hitting puberty, he/she will likely sound native in all three languages. But this advantage doesn't nullify the claim that adult learners can still become fluent in a foreign language. It just means that adult learners might never sound exactly like a native speaker, even though motivated learners can achieve near-native pronunciation in their target language [3]. [1] Babies are born with the ability to hear/distinguish between the sounds of all world languages, but this ability starts to diminish around the age of 10 months (pp 39-40, The Bilingual Edge, King and Mackey, http://www.amazon.com/The-Bilingual-Edge-Second-Language/dp/0061246565 http://www.amazon.com/The-Bilingual-Edge-Second-Language/dp/...). [2] "Critical period research clearly demonstrates that the probability of a near-native L2 phonology rapidly diminishes as we age", Charles Nagle, "A Reexamination of Ultimate Attainment in L2 Phonology: Length of Immersion, Motivation, and Phonological Short-Term Memory", http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf [3] "The results of this study highlight the fact that learners appear to be able to achieve near-native pronunciation without significant formal instruction in pronunciation which perhaps also evidences the role of implicit learning in L2 phonology...", Nagle, http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf http://www.lingref.com/cpp/slrf/2011/paper2913.pdf