5 ms·

> All of a sudden, we were forced to figure out, how much we actually sold in each of those states, where we hired people Not to be offensive, but differences

by mjolk 13y ago

> All of a sudden, we were forced to figure out, how much we actually sold in each of those states, where we hired people Not to be offensive, but differences in state rules should have been expected, given the name of the country. How hard do you think it would be to get a random sample of 50 people to decide on a movie? Now swap people with territories and movie with governance. This blog post is just ranting and whinging that some paperwork had to be done when starting a business on foreign soil. I worry about the quality of Razuna as a product if attention to filling out a form is a huge ask.

shadowmint 13y ago
oh come on, if you're going to be a jerk just do it, don't fill your post with trite crap like 'not to be offensive, but...'
- mjolk 13y ago
  It was softening it so the reader would know that I'm not trying to be obtuse. Part of language is communicating meaning, not just trying to get a string of words together. None of that was being a jerk.
mcv 13y ago
It's not just ranting about some paperwork. It's pointing out that the paperwork is far worse than in the EU (which is far less unified than the US, but at least the labour market is pretty transparent), and actively discourages companies from incorporating in the US. The US is hurting its own bottomline here. Now countries shouldn't make it too attractive for companies either; then you get a race to the bottom where companies get tax exemptions just for creating a handful of extra jobs. And this absolutely happens; I believe there are some European countries where taxes for foreign companies are ridiculously low. So the EU isn't doing everything right either. But shouldn't there be some sensible middle ground where it's easy to open up shop in a different country, without having to jump through insane hoops, while paying a normal, sane amount of tax?
- davidw 13y ago
  > the EU No, Denmark. If you want paperwork, there's plenty to be had here in Italy!
tankenmate 13y ago
After having done business in many other countries you begin to realise that certain countries have a love affair with needless bureaucracy; the US and it's fragmented federation being one of them. Take Australia for example; even though it is a federation of states (and territories) like the US it has one uniform goods and sales tax that is consistent across the country. In fact states regularly come together to share best practice between legislation and administration in order to increase efficiencies within the country. Even road laws (which are a state matter in Australia) have been deliberately homogenised between states. Even countries like the UK with it's constituent nations and territories work hard at having a uniform and efficient system for businesses to do what they need to do. Saying "Just deal with it" is a cop out that will end up consigning your country to a worsening economic future. Tourists are already turned off from coming to the US because of the TSA issues. Having a "Just deal with it" attitude will also drive away business. This will lead to a worsening trade imbalance and the joys that come forthwith.
- mjolk 13y ago
  While this thread is bound to fill with anecdotes... > Tourists are already turned off from coming to the US because of the TSA issues. I'd love to agree with you, but there's that pesky reality that disagrees with your claim: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/a-record-year-for-new-york-tourism/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0 http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/a-record-year-f... >Even countries like the UK with it's constituent nations and territories work hard at having a uniform and efficient system for businesses to do what they need to do. Population UK: 63mm Population USA 310mm and support your claim that the territories work hard at having an efficient system for businesses. > Having a "Just deal with it" attitude will also drive away business. The paperwork really isn't hard. What makes you think that filling out some tax forms is keeping people from opening up shop in America?
  - beagle3 13y ago
    > The paperwork really isn't hard. Yes, it is. Many of my friends are business owners, most of them have some international business. I've been in touch with a variety of tax professionals in different countries through the years. In the last 10 years or so, I've seen more than one business or partnership outside the US state in its charter that "shareholder may not be a US tax payer, and may not sell his shares to one, and will sell his shares to someone who is not if he becomes one", because of how complicated it makes things. If you think US paperwork is sane or is not hard, it is probably because you did not have enough exposure to it, or alternatively, not had exposure to a saner system. Objectively: US Federal Tax code is >71,000 pages (as of 2009 when I checked - probably longer now). And it applies to every american. NYS tax code is some 15,000 more pages; if you are doing significant business in NYS, that's about 10 times as many details to be aware of than in any other country that I'm aware of.
vacri 13y ago
differences in state rules should have been expected, given the name of the country 'United'?
- mjolk 13y ago
  And yet there's a star for each state and stripes to denote the original handful. We have federal laws and state laws to accommodate regional preferences.
- mhurron 13y ago
  It's only united in war. Other than that it each state, county and municipality is run like it's own little fiefdom.
nitai 13y ago
Filling out "a form" is not the issue outlined. Filling in "hundred of forms', taking up to 6 months and not being able to pay employees is. Furthermore, Razuna is successful. All we wanted is to continue on US soil and expanding by hiring US people and thus paying US taxes = bringing money to the US. That's what the blog post is all about. It has been written to show what it takes to incorporate for a European company.
- mattlutze 13y ago
  If I may, it sounds like the hurdles encountered were: - Paperwork and fees/taxes in each state an employee works in. - Securing a work visa to enter and work in the US. But, it sounds like, if we were to swap places and Nitai lived in the US, trying to start a business in Europe, he'd be faced with - Paperwork and fees/taxes paid to each country his employees worked. - Securing a work visa to enter and work in the EU. Depending on the country American Nitai wanted to live/work in, the visa may be easier/harder than the US visa, I'd imagine. But I'm not sure that the kinds of difficulties would be much different. You're putting up a lot of strawmen here. Example: "He will pay his taxes in Denmark, Germany, Switzerland or wherever he freely chooses to live. In Europe, you can live in whichever country you like. Most countries here seem happy to receive taxes." In the US, you can freely live in whichever state you want. It's rhetorically dishonest to compare the United States to a single country in the EU. -- I'm sorry that your experience was a poor one. Indeed, US laws are different, and if you went into the experience expecting it not to be different, that would certainly have been a shock. I make no claim our system is better than Denmark's (you shouldn't imply all of the EU is the same as Denmark, by the way). But it's a disingenuous platform to decry the US because you received inadequate counsel on setting up a US business or failed in your due diligence... I'm sure, however, the pro-European camp of your readership will feel quite satisfied with the tone and subject matter of your post.
  - nitai 13y ago
    This is NOT about PRO-Europe or PRO-USA. It is about how difficult the current government makes it to come to the US, build business and live there (as a European). I personally know one CEO who runs a 80 Mil./year company in the USA, has 250 employees (3/4 are US citizens) but only received a green card or allowance to stay longer then one year in the USA 10 years into the business. That said, you can't compare the USA with the European immigration laws. As an example, there are many Americans living in Berlin. The way you can live in Berlin is by flying to Berlin and show up at the immigration within a week and tell them that you want to move here, pay taxes and work. It is even easier if you already have an employment. Additionally, there is something like a "Language" & "Artist" visa in Germany. Under these visa's you can simply stay and live here. You can even build businesses and start employing people. That's Germany. Want to live in Denmark? Same there. Want to open a business and live in Switzerland. Go register yourself and work. Right, you cannot vote and don't have a nice "credit" but at least you are given the chance to build something. Now, if there would be a startup-visa in the USA, I'm sure there would be many willing to move and try to build a business in the USA. But as it is now, you can't. I'm not taking way jobs from any US citizen, quite the contrary, we are hiring people and try to contribute to the US system.
crusso 13y ago
As a nation and a culture, the USA has decided that business and business concerns aren't as important as they once were. I'd go so far as to say that there has been a great deal of hostility toward businesses lately. Financial success in the mainstream media has become something to criticize and suspect as "ill gotten". There's a reason why the USA continues to drop in business freedom rankings. It's not just this one guy's whining. As an American, I don't want to run away from this criticism. I think we should own it and make decisions about what to do about it based upon acceptance of it, not rationalization and denial.

by mjolk 13y ago

shadowmint 13y ago

oh come on, if you're going to be a jerk just do it, don't fill your post with trite crap like 'not to be offensive, but...'

mjolk 13y ago
It was softening it so the reader would know that I'm not trying to be obtuse. Part of language is communicating meaning, not just trying to get a string of words together. None of that was being a jerk.

mcv 13y ago

It's not just ranting about some paperwork. It's pointing out that the paperwork is far worse than in the EU (which is far less unified than the US, but at least the labour market is pretty transparent), and actively discourages companies from incorporating in the US. The US is hurting its own bottomline here. Now countries shouldn't make it too attractive for companies either; then you get a race to the bottom where companies get tax exemptions just for creating a handful of extra jobs. And this absolutely happens; I believe there are some European countries where taxes for foreign companies are ridiculously low. So the EU isn't doing everything right either. But shouldn't there be some sensible middle ground where it's easy to open up shop in a different country, without having to jump through insane hoops, while paying a normal, sane amount of tax?

davidw 13y ago
> the EU No, Denmark. If you want paperwork, there's plenty to be had here in Italy!

tankenmate 13y ago

After having done business in many other countries you begin to realise that certain countries have a love affair with needless bureaucracy; the US and it's fragmented federation being one of them. Take Australia for example; even though it is a federation of states (and territories) like the US it has one uniform goods and sales tax that is consistent across the country. In fact states regularly come together to share best practice between legislation and administration in order to increase efficiencies within the country. Even road laws (which are a state matter in Australia) have been deliberately homogenised between states. Even countries like the UK with it's constituent nations and territories work hard at having a uniform and efficient system for businesses to do what they need to do. Saying "Just deal with it" is a cop out that will end up consigning your country to a worsening economic future. Tourists are already turned off from coming to the US because of the TSA issues. Having a "Just deal with it" attitude will also drive away business. This will lead to a worsening trade imbalance and the joys that come forthwith.

mjolk 13y ago
While this thread is bound to fill with anecdotes... > Tourists are already turned off from coming to the US because of the TSA issues. I'd love to agree with you, but there's that pesky reality that disagrees with your claim: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/a-record-year-for-new-york-tourism/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0 http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/a-record-year-f... >Even countries like the UK with it's constituent nations and territories work hard at having a uniform and efficient system for businesses to do what they need to do. Population UK: 63mm Population USA 310mm and support your claim that the territories work hard at having an efficient system for businesses. > Having a "Just deal with it" attitude will also drive away business. The paperwork really isn't hard. What makes you think that filling out some tax forms is keeping people from opening up shop in America?
- beagle3 13y ago
  > The paperwork really isn't hard. Yes, it is. Many of my friends are business owners, most of them have some international business. I've been in touch with a variety of tax professionals in different countries through the years. In the last 10 years or so, I've seen more than one business or partnership outside the US state in its charter that "shareholder may not be a US tax payer, and may not sell his shares to one, and will sell his shares to someone who is not if he becomes one", because of how complicated it makes things. If you think US paperwork is sane or is not hard, it is probably because you did not have enough exposure to it, or alternatively, not had exposure to a saner system. Objectively: US Federal Tax code is >71,000 pages (as of 2009 when I checked - probably longer now). And it applies to every american. NYS tax code is some 15,000 more pages; if you are doing significant business in NYS, that's about 10 times as many details to be aware of than in any other country that I'm aware of.

vacri 13y ago

differences in state rules should have been expected, given the name of the country 'United'?

mjolk 13y ago
And yet there's a star for each state and stripes to denote the original handful. We have federal laws and state laws to accommodate regional preferences.
mhurron 13y ago
It's only united in war. Other than that it each state, county and municipality is run like it's own little fiefdom.

nitai 13y ago

Filling out "a form" is not the issue outlined. Filling in "hundred of forms', taking up to 6 months and not being able to pay employees is. Furthermore, Razuna is successful. All we wanted is to continue on US soil and expanding by hiring US people and thus paying US taxes = bringing money to the US. That's what the blog post is all about. It has been written to show what it takes to incorporate for a European company.

mattlutze 13y ago
If I may, it sounds like the hurdles encountered were: - Paperwork and fees/taxes in each state an employee works in. - Securing a work visa to enter and work in the US. But, it sounds like, if we were to swap places and Nitai lived in the US, trying to start a business in Europe, he'd be faced with - Paperwork and fees/taxes paid to each country his employees worked. - Securing a work visa to enter and work in the EU. Depending on the country American Nitai wanted to live/work in, the visa may be easier/harder than the US visa, I'd imagine. But I'm not sure that the kinds of difficulties would be much different. You're putting up a lot of strawmen here. Example: "He will pay his taxes in Denmark, Germany, Switzerland or wherever he freely chooses to live. In Europe, you can live in whichever country you like. Most countries here seem happy to receive taxes." In the US, you can freely live in whichever state you want. It's rhetorically dishonest to compare the United States to a single country in the EU. -- I'm sorry that your experience was a poor one. Indeed, US laws are different, and if you went into the experience expecting it not to be different, that would certainly have been a shock. I make no claim our system is better than Denmark's (you shouldn't imply all of the EU is the same as Denmark, by the way). But it's a disingenuous platform to decry the US because you received inadequate counsel on setting up a US business or failed in your due diligence... I'm sure, however, the pro-European camp of your readership will feel quite satisfied with the tone and subject matter of your post.
- nitai 13y ago
  This is NOT about PRO-Europe or PRO-USA. It is about how difficult the current government makes it to come to the US, build business and live there (as a European). I personally know one CEO who runs a 80 Mil./year company in the USA, has 250 employees (3/4 are US citizens) but only received a green card or allowance to stay longer then one year in the USA 10 years into the business. That said, you can't compare the USA with the European immigration laws. As an example, there are many Americans living in Berlin. The way you can live in Berlin is by flying to Berlin and show up at the immigration within a week and tell them that you want to move here, pay taxes and work. It is even easier if you already have an employment. Additionally, there is something like a "Language" & "Artist" visa in Germany. Under these visa's you can simply stay and live here. You can even build businesses and start employing people. That's Germany. Want to live in Denmark? Same there. Want to open a business and live in Switzerland. Go register yourself and work. Right, you cannot vote and don't have a nice "credit" but at least you are given the chance to build something. Now, if there would be a startup-visa in the USA, I'm sure there would be many willing to move and try to build a business in the USA. But as it is now, you can't. I'm not taking way jobs from any US citizen, quite the contrary, we are hiring people and try to contribute to the US system.

crusso 13y ago

As a nation and a culture, the USA has decided that business and business concerns aren't as important as they once were. I'd go so far as to say that there has been a great deal of hostility toward businesses lately. Financial success in the mainstream media has become something to criticize and suspect as "ill gotten". There's a reason why the USA continues to drop in business freedom rankings. It's not just this one guy's whining. As an American, I don't want to run away from this criticism. I think we should own it and make decisions about what to do about it based upon acceptance of it, not rationalization and denial.