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I do not know, who ever came up with the idea, that voluntary CSR could replace social taxes and regulations, but in my opinion, that is nothing else as neo-cap

I do not know, who ever came up with the idea, that voluntary CSR could replace social taxes and regulations, but in my opinion, that is nothing else as neo-capitalistic bullshit, again! Those that believe in it should go to the worst areas of England and into the slums of the US and see what the results are. England once was one of the wealthiest and best to live in countries of the world. Now, after Thatcher, it is just a hollow carcass, cankered by neo-capitalism. What is left is the reign of the bankers, leaving some tips on the desk for the underdogs.

refurb 13y ago
Hmmm... that doesn't make much sense. The UK was in terrible economic shape before Thatcher.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  That was my recollection, but looking at plots of real GDP per capita and debt/GDP, I'm not seeing any substantive changes associated with the Thatcher years. Is there any metric where it pops?
  - refurb 13y ago
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/08/a-look-back-at-margaret-thatchers-economic-record/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/08/a... It looks like under Thatcher got inflation under control, unemployment rose, then fell (similar to the US during the same time period) and the economy had a run of growth from '81 to '90 that peaked near 5%. Not too shabby when you look at the 10 years prior when inflation was 25% and the economy shrank from '74-76. Britain was regarded as a "sick man of Europe" before Thatcher took office.
    - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
      I don't think, that such figures as economic growth and inflation rate are the only and best methods to evaluate the results of a specific politic. What is the impact on the people and the state in general? Which factors are also important in this time. The thing is, that economic bad times change with better times -- even with no change at all in politics. To consider every time a success of the leading party is often times just statistical brainwashing. The Germans also had a bigger raise in economy with the opposite politics. Also look how the long term results are, since the Thatcherian politics are still followed by the successors. The privatization of many areas like railway and water services resulted in worse quality of service. Also the UK today has nearly killed of all its industry base. Instead they have only left their banks, so they are largely susceptible now to blackmail of this sector, that is the reason why the banking sector can not be reorganized in Europe, since it is blocked by the veto of the British. What is left is a poor leftover of capitalism. Of course it is white-washed by statistical figures that always skip the negatives, since the advocates of unregulated capitalism want to prove their point.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      Ah, hadn't looked at inflation. That does seem to have shaped up around that time period. "unemployment rose, then fell" http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+unemployment+1984+to+1990 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+unemployment+1984+to... 1970-1979, unemployment was mostly below 5%. It was about 7% after it "fell" post-Thatcher, when it started rising again in 1991. It then fell again, finally getting back to pre-Thatcher levels only sometime post 2000 - where it stayed until the 2009 crash. "[T]he economy had a run of growth from '81 to '90 that peaked near 5%. "Not too shabby when you look at the 10 years prior when inflation was 25% and the economy shrank from '74-76." That's pretty cherrypicky. Let's get a slightly broader view: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+real+gdp+per+capita+1970+to+1990 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+real+gdp+per+capita+... The economy shrank from '74-'76; it also shrank '79-'81 and '90-'91. The years '71-'80 peaked in '73 at over 7% growth (for which the '74-'76 slump may well have been a correction). I'm not sure I'd call it shabby, but I'm not sure it's great, especially with the high unemployment rate. 'Britain was regarded as a "sick man of Europe" before Thatcher took office.' I'm aware of the perception, and the shifts therein. I was curious as to the accuracy of it.
- PythonicAlpha 13y ago
  Thatcher was highly regarded as role model how profitable it is to go for more privatization. But the result is, that today the UK is in worse state as it was before Thatcher. It was profitable of course! But not for the 99% of the people.
  - nl 13y ago
    I'm no fan of Margaret Thatcher, but the UK economy in the 1970's was a complete disaster - much, much worse than it is today. For example a combination of very high inflation (above 15% pa for the 4 years between 1974 and 1977[1]) combined with huge strikes by unions led to incidents like the "three day week"[2] (where the conservative UK government rationed electricity to businesses: they could only use it 3 days per week) and the "Winter of Discontent"[3] (where the Labour government failed to reach a wage control agreement with unions, leading to more strikes and the Thatcher government). Official unemployment figures throughout the 1970's look much better than today (eg, 5-6% unemployment rather than ~7.5% now), but that doesn't take into account the fact that many were not being paid because of strike action, and also that the high inflation meant people were chronically underpaid (hence the strikes). http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6729683.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6729683.stm is worth reading to get some idea of just how bad it was. [1] http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/ http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conve... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
    - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
      Have a look at my answer to "refurb". I also don't want to say that everything was good before Thatcher or that a socialistic approach is always better or even good. But what I wanted to say, that many of the long term results of Thatcherism are hurting the country till today, even when it was brought out of economic decline. I think, that neither socialism nor pure thinking that capitalism and market will "just make it all right" work in the long run. The results of "market makes it alright" are visible in the sweat shops of the 3rd world countries. In the western countries we have a long tradition of market regulation and that is our luck -- but it seems we are running out of luck.

refurb 13y ago

Hmmm... that doesn't make much sense. The UK was in terrible economic shape before Thatcher.

dllthomas 13y ago
That was my recollection, but looking at plots of real GDP per capita and debt/GDP, I'm not seeing any substantive changes associated with the Thatcher years. Is there any metric where it pops?
- refurb 13y ago
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/08/a-look-back-at-margaret-thatchers-economic-record/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/08/a... It looks like under Thatcher got inflation under control, unemployment rose, then fell (similar to the US during the same time period) and the economy had a run of growth from '81 to '90 that peaked near 5%. Not too shabby when you look at the 10 years prior when inflation was 25% and the economy shrank from '74-76. Britain was regarded as a "sick man of Europe" before Thatcher took office.
  - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
    I don't think, that such figures as economic growth and inflation rate are the only and best methods to evaluate the results of a specific politic. What is the impact on the people and the state in general? Which factors are also important in this time. The thing is, that economic bad times change with better times -- even with no change at all in politics. To consider every time a success of the leading party is often times just statistical brainwashing. The Germans also had a bigger raise in economy with the opposite politics. Also look how the long term results are, since the Thatcherian politics are still followed by the successors. The privatization of many areas like railway and water services resulted in worse quality of service. Also the UK today has nearly killed of all its industry base. Instead they have only left their banks, so they are largely susceptible now to blackmail of this sector, that is the reason why the banking sector can not be reorganized in Europe, since it is blocked by the veto of the British. What is left is a poor leftover of capitalism. Of course it is white-washed by statistical figures that always skip the negatives, since the advocates of unregulated capitalism want to prove their point.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Ah, hadn't looked at inflation. That does seem to have shaped up around that time period. "unemployment rose, then fell" http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+unemployment+1984+to+1990 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+unemployment+1984+to... 1970-1979, unemployment was mostly below 5%. It was about 7% after it "fell" post-Thatcher, when it started rising again in 1991. It then fell again, finally getting back to pre-Thatcher levels only sometime post 2000 - where it stayed until the 2009 crash. "[T]he economy had a run of growth from '81 to '90 that peaked near 5%. "Not too shabby when you look at the 10 years prior when inflation was 25% and the economy shrank from '74-76." That's pretty cherrypicky. Let's get a slightly broader view: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+real+gdp+per+capita+1970+to+1990 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=uk+real+gdp+per+capita+... The economy shrank from '74-'76; it also shrank '79-'81 and '90-'91. The years '71-'80 peaked in '73 at over 7% growth (for which the '74-'76 slump may well have been a correction). I'm not sure I'd call it shabby, but I'm not sure it's great, especially with the high unemployment rate. 'Britain was regarded as a "sick man of Europe" before Thatcher took office.' I'm aware of the perception, and the shifts therein. I was curious as to the accuracy of it.
PythonicAlpha 13y ago
Thatcher was highly regarded as role model how profitable it is to go for more privatization. But the result is, that today the UK is in worse state as it was before Thatcher. It was profitable of course! But not for the 99% of the people.
- nl 13y ago
  I'm no fan of Margaret Thatcher, but the UK economy in the 1970's was a complete disaster - much, much worse than it is today. For example a combination of very high inflation (above 15% pa for the 4 years between 1974 and 1977[1]) combined with huge strikes by unions led to incidents like the "three day week"[2] (where the conservative UK government rationed electricity to businesses: they could only use it 3 days per week) and the "Winter of Discontent"[3] (where the Labour government failed to reach a wage control agreement with unions, leading to more strikes and the Thatcher government). Official unemployment figures throughout the 1970's look much better than today (eg, 5-6% unemployment rather than ~7.5% now), but that doesn't take into account the fact that many were not being paid because of strike action, and also that the high inflation meant people were chronically underpaid (hence the strikes). http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6729683.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6729683.stm is worth reading to get some idea of just how bad it was. [1] http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/ http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conve... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
  - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
    Have a look at my answer to "refurb". I also don't want to say that everything was good before Thatcher or that a socialistic approach is always better or even good. But what I wanted to say, that many of the long term results of Thatcherism are hurting the country till today, even when it was brought out of economic decline. I think, that neither socialism nor pure thinking that capitalism and market will "just make it all right" work in the long run. The results of "market makes it alright" are visible in the sweat shops of the 3rd world countries. In the western countries we have a long tradition of market regulation and that is our luck -- but it seems we are running out of luck.