5 ms·

If you see how Hermes Group, an Otto owned logistics company, (sub-)subcontractors have to handle their daily work load at (often below) minimum wage pay, often

by mxfh 13y ago

If you see how Hermes Group, an Otto owned logistics company, (sub-)subcontractors have to handle their daily work load at (often below) minimum wage pay, often with their private cars, it's hard to believe he's that serious about running a morally superior business for any other reason than getting good PR. DHL is not golden either but Hermes is just bad in every aspect. As a private customer in Germany I would try to avoid getting stuff shipped to me through Hermes by all means possible, since you never know who delivers your stuff (high fluctuation of sub-sub contractors) the delivery experience ranges from unacceptable to slightly above sub-par. http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/tv/ard-film-ueber-lohndumping-die-paketboten-und-der-milliardaer-a-778200.html http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/tv/ard-film-ueber-lohndumping-d... [German] http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fkultur%2Ftv%2Fard-film-ueber-lohndumping-die-paketboten-und-der-milliardaer-a-778200.html http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=ht... [Google translate]

PythonicAlpha 13y ago
I agree. I think, today's Otto Group is not morally superior to Amazon's business at all, at least judged by their Hermes business. At least, I can not see any viable differences. What totally pisses me off is, the aura of "charity" that Otto is surrounding around himself. He also got a high German medal (the so called "Große Verdienstkreuz mit Stern") for his charities. With examples like these, German high medals become the same value as the "Nobel Peace Prize" that is given to some of the worst persons that have lived. I now understand, why some people strictly refuse to be dishonored by such prizes.
- jmngomes 13y ago
  > What totally pisses me off is, the aura of "charity" that Otto is surrounding around himself. Agreed; we need an equivalent to "greenwashing" to describe this behaviour...
  - mxfh 13y ago
    It's right there with the "trickle-down" myth. The whole idea that that CSR[1] somehow frees companies from paying their share in social taxes and exempts them from regulations[2]; that the government controlled social sector and welfare could be privatized (at least in Germany there's something left) and social taxes and regulations could be replaced by voluntary CSR measures. It might work for a few PR-exploitable areas, but not everything yields a ROI high enough to please the investors. If a company want's to do something good they should show it first through their products, trough the resources they are made with and how well they treat their employees.[3] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility#Criticisms_and_concerns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/business/media/comcasts-web-of-lobbying-and-philanthropy.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/business/media/comcasts-we... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7176028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7176028
    - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
      I do not know, who ever came up with the idea, that voluntary CSR could replace social taxes and regulations, but in my opinion, that is nothing else as neo-capitalistic bullshit, again! Those that believe in it should go to the worst areas of England and into the slums of the US and see what the results are. England once was one of the wealthiest and best to live in countries of the world. Now, after Thatcher, it is just a hollow carcass, cankered by neo-capitalism. What is left is the reign of the bankers, leaving some tips on the desk for the underdogs.
      - refurb 13y ago
        Hmmm... that doesn't make much sense. The UK was in terrible economic shape before Thatcher.
        dllthomas 13y ago
        That was my recollection, but looking at plots of real GDP per capita and debt/GDP, I'm not seeing any substantive changes associated with the Thatcher years. Is there any metric where it pops?
- oijaf888 13y ago
  What winners of the Nobel Peace Prize have been the "worst persons that have lived"?
  - fmela 13y ago
    Yasser Arafat and Henry Kissinger come to mind.
  - jacobolus 13y ago
    Henry Kissenger, for one, was a straight-up war criminal. “Worst persons who have lived” doesn’t have a very precise definition though, so I’ll pass on judging that one.
  - Phlarp 13y ago
    Perhaps not in the "worst person that have lived" category; but many have said Obama was awarded the prize almost entirely on the merit of campaign promises he has since failed to enact.
  - levosmetalo 13y ago
    All of the leaders of countries involved in any kind of war during their ruling would certainly meet the criteria. If Yaser Arafat and Barack Obama deserved the Nobel Peace Prize, I guess now it's time for Vladimir Putin to make the list complete?
    - oijaf888 13y ago
      Really? That's all the criteria for "worst persons to have ever lived"? That's a pretty low bar and seems like it would qualify pretty much every head of state ever.
pjmlp 13y ago
Fully agree with you. Every time I see a Hermes notice on my door I have immediate nightmares where the package might have landed. A few weeks ago, after asking Hermes to deliver the package to a local Hermes station, it took a lot of discussion with the guy there trying to convince him to go through the packages. With him stating it wasn't delivered, while Hermes confirmed me it was there. To put it shortly, the package was there and this is a common occurrence with Hermes deliveries. If you can control which company is handling your deliveries, never ever use Hermes besides sending stuff back to Amazon.
mathattack 13y ago
This is true of a lot of firms. Large companies like to be pillars of the business community, but push their problems to their suppliers. It's not just Otto. The other challenge is it's hard to change a paternalistic culture where "Dad" is looking out for everyone. It's hard to make change happen, and hard to get people to double down during a crisis. The lethargy at these cultures is palpable.
- PythonicAlpha 13y ago
  That is right. It seems to me a large trend today, to install this "chain of irresponsibility" in many companies. Because they can save some money and say it is not their fault, when somebody criticizes. But since it seems to me, that Hermes was one of the first in the Germany based parcel delivery businesses to use this concept, they have no excuse. What kind of excuse is it anyway to say "the others are doing it too!". Tell that in a courtroom after a murder! It is the same game, btw. that western companies play in 3rd world companies. They do not open the sweat shops themselves, but work with contractors or sub-contractors or even sub-sub-contractors. And when a sweat shop burns down, to many workers kill themselves (all things that already happen(ed)) or something else happens -- they know about nothing and are horrified by the "bad behavior" of their contractor that they would "never imagine"!
terhechte 13y ago
In contrast, I know a couple of people that work for Otto directly (i.e. not for Otto owned companies like Hermes or MyToys) and their work environments are fantastic. I also have friends in other big companies like Unilever, Mondelēz (former Kraft), and more, and based on what I am told, Otto offers the best working conditions. Logistics companies are currently in a hard and cut throat market, and the only place where you can order and be kinda assured that the workers working conditions are o.k. is, I think, Deutsche Post. Doesn't make it right, but as explained above, some of Otto's other endeavours do indeed excel with very good working conditions.
- PythonicAlpha 13y ago
  The working conditions of Deutsche Post are changing too. The base personal still is fairing very well, I think, but the parcel department DHL is more and more also working with sub-contractors. A similar model as Hermes is doing. But it must be said, that Hermes was one of those that started this race. So, it is legitimate I think to say, that DHL reacted on the move of Hermes, since the big companies are demanding the lowest prices and Hermes of course is ahead with its model against a Deutsche Post with guaranteed jobs, relatively high salaries and high costs for pensions.
k__ 13y ago
DHL sucks these days. They deliver late or never and sometimes steal my stuff. Hermes always delivers.
infinii 13y ago
Hermes Logistics is but ONE of Otto Group's +100 companies. HL isn't even a mainstay of the OG portfolio as they were only purchased a few years ago. Judge not, the whole bushel because of one bad apple.
EvaK_de 13y ago
There is no such thing as a "minimum wage" in Germany - at least not yet.
- eru 13y ago
  At least not outside of a few sectors.
  - EvaK_de 13y ago
    Your're right. The logistics sector however is not among those few.
    - eru 13y ago
      Yes. It's always funny to see people clamour to minimum wages. Eg they express costs in terms of multiples of minimum wage. Or celebrate raising the minimum wage. Hong Kong recently raised the minimum wage from 0 to a couple of dollars. (Ie introduced a new one.) Poor People didn't suddenly earn more money.

by mxfh 13y ago

PythonicAlpha 13y ago

I agree. I think, today's Otto Group is not morally superior to Amazon's business at all, at least judged by their Hermes business. At least, I can not see any viable differences. What totally pisses me off is, the aura of "charity" that Otto is surrounding around himself. He also got a high German medal (the so called "Große Verdienstkreuz mit Stern") for his charities. With examples like these, German high medals become the same value as the "Nobel Peace Prize" that is given to some of the worst persons that have lived. I now understand, why some people strictly refuse to be dishonored by such prizes.

jmngomes 13y ago
> What totally pisses me off is, the aura of "charity" that Otto is surrounding around himself. Agreed; we need an equivalent to "greenwashing" to describe this behaviour...
- mxfh 13y ago
  It's right there with the "trickle-down" myth. The whole idea that that CSR[1] somehow frees companies from paying their share in social taxes and exempts them from regulations[2]; that the government controlled social sector and welfare could be privatized (at least in Germany there's something left) and social taxes and regulations could be replaced by voluntary CSR measures. It might work for a few PR-exploitable areas, but not everything yields a ROI high enough to please the investors. If a company want's to do something good they should show it first through their products, trough the resources they are made with and how well they treat their employees.[3] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility#Criticisms_and_concerns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/business/media/comcasts-web-of-lobbying-and-philanthropy.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/business/media/comcasts-we... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7176028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7176028
  - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
    I do not know, who ever came up with the idea, that voluntary CSR could replace social taxes and regulations, but in my opinion, that is nothing else as neo-capitalistic bullshit, again! Those that believe in it should go to the worst areas of England and into the slums of the US and see what the results are. England once was one of the wealthiest and best to live in countries of the world. Now, after Thatcher, it is just a hollow carcass, cankered by neo-capitalism. What is left is the reign of the bankers, leaving some tips on the desk for the underdogs.
    - refurb 13y ago
      Hmmm... that doesn't make much sense. The UK was in terrible economic shape before Thatcher.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        That was my recollection, but looking at plots of real GDP per capita and debt/GDP, I'm not seeing any substantive changes associated with the Thatcher years. Is there any metric where it pops?
oijaf888 13y ago
What winners of the Nobel Peace Prize have been the "worst persons that have lived"?
- fmela 13y ago
  Yasser Arafat and Henry Kissinger come to mind.
- jacobolus 13y ago
  Henry Kissenger, for one, was a straight-up war criminal. “Worst persons who have lived” doesn’t have a very precise definition though, so I’ll pass on judging that one.
- Phlarp 13y ago
  Perhaps not in the "worst person that have lived" category; but many have said Obama was awarded the prize almost entirely on the merit of campaign promises he has since failed to enact.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  All of the leaders of countries involved in any kind of war during their ruling would certainly meet the criteria. If Yaser Arafat and Barack Obama deserved the Nobel Peace Prize, I guess now it's time for Vladimir Putin to make the list complete?
  - oijaf888 13y ago
    Really? That's all the criteria for "worst persons to have ever lived"? That's a pretty low bar and seems like it would qualify pretty much every head of state ever.

pjmlp 13y ago

Fully agree with you. Every time I see a Hermes notice on my door I have immediate nightmares where the package might have landed. A few weeks ago, after asking Hermes to deliver the package to a local Hermes station, it took a lot of discussion with the guy there trying to convince him to go through the packages. With him stating it wasn't delivered, while Hermes confirmed me it was there. To put it shortly, the package was there and this is a common occurrence with Hermes deliveries. If you can control which company is handling your deliveries, never ever use Hermes besides sending stuff back to Amazon.

mathattack 13y ago

This is true of a lot of firms. Large companies like to be pillars of the business community, but push their problems to their suppliers. It's not just Otto. The other challenge is it's hard to change a paternalistic culture where "Dad" is looking out for everyone. It's hard to make change happen, and hard to get people to double down during a crisis. The lethargy at these cultures is palpable.

PythonicAlpha 13y ago
That is right. It seems to me a large trend today, to install this "chain of irresponsibility" in many companies. Because they can save some money and say it is not their fault, when somebody criticizes. But since it seems to me, that Hermes was one of the first in the Germany based parcel delivery businesses to use this concept, they have no excuse. What kind of excuse is it anyway to say "the others are doing it too!". Tell that in a courtroom after a murder! It is the same game, btw. that western companies play in 3rd world companies. They do not open the sweat shops themselves, but work with contractors or sub-contractors or even sub-sub-contractors. And when a sweat shop burns down, to many workers kill themselves (all things that already happen(ed)) or something else happens -- they know about nothing and are horrified by the "bad behavior" of their contractor that they would "never imagine"!

terhechte 13y ago

In contrast, I know a couple of people that work for Otto directly (i.e. not for Otto owned companies like Hermes or MyToys) and their work environments are fantastic. I also have friends in other big companies like Unilever, Mondelēz (former Kraft), and more, and based on what I am told, Otto offers the best working conditions. Logistics companies are currently in a hard and cut throat market, and the only place where you can order and be kinda assured that the workers working conditions are o.k. is, I think, Deutsche Post. Doesn't make it right, but as explained above, some of Otto's other endeavours do indeed excel with very good working conditions.

PythonicAlpha 13y ago
The working conditions of Deutsche Post are changing too. The base personal still is fairing very well, I think, but the parcel department DHL is more and more also working with sub-contractors. A similar model as Hermes is doing. But it must be said, that Hermes was one of those that started this race. So, it is legitimate I think to say, that DHL reacted on the move of Hermes, since the big companies are demanding the lowest prices and Hermes of course is ahead with its model against a Deutsche Post with guaranteed jobs, relatively high salaries and high costs for pensions.

k__ 13y ago

DHL sucks these days. They deliver late or never and sometimes steal my stuff. Hermes always delivers.

infinii 13y ago

Hermes Logistics is but ONE of Otto Group's +100 companies. HL isn't even a mainstay of the OG portfolio as they were only purchased a few years ago. Judge not, the whole bushel because of one bad apple.

EvaK_de 13y ago

There is no such thing as a "minimum wage" in Germany - at least not yet.

eru 13y ago
At least not outside of a few sectors.
- EvaK_de 13y ago
  Your're right. The logistics sector however is not among those few.
  - eru 13y ago
    Yes. It's always funny to see people clamour to minimum wages. Eg they express costs in terms of multiples of minimum wage. Or celebrate raising the minimum wage. Hong Kong recently raised the minimum wage from 0 to a couple of dollars. (Ie introduced a new one.) Poor People didn't suddenly earn more money.