5 ms·

'Phantom call' theory dismissed by experts

11 points by galapago 13y ago

twoodfin 13y ago
We needed experts to tell us this? I guess it's a good example of how folk knowledge about technology is often wrong, and how UI transplanted from an old system to a new system can lead users to make invalid assumptions.
mikeash 13y ago
This whole cell phone discussion is by far the most idiotic thing I've seen relating to MH370. I can't believe I've seen so many articles attempting to present "both sides" of it. Newsflash: if you dial a cell phone number, the network has to search for the phone. If that phone is, say, at the bottom of the ocean, the network can spend a while searching before it gives up. In that time, the caller will often still hear a "ringing" tone. I can understand why people might not know this and think that it somehow means something. I cannot understand why any so-called "journalist" or "news organization" would ever take the idea seriously for even a minute, let alone run a story about it.
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  I agree with this, but I also note that if the plane were hijacked/subverted and flown to some other airport, folks do tend to forget and leave there cell phones on in over head bins and what not so it would be interesting to track down any tower pings for cell phones associated with any of the 200+ passengers on towers in the area. Hard to co-ordinate though especially in south east asia with a variety of providers.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I would not be surprised if this had been done and the result was "we have no signal from any of these". But that doesn't get printed, because any individual provider saying that doesn't mean the phone is actually unreachable, and it's not a compelling story.... My point is that these "ringing" phones tell us nothing. The behavior is consistent with a hijacked plane but it's also consistent with one that crashed into the ocean and sank without a trace. All it tells us is that the people aren't alive and well within range of a cell network, and we knew that already.
- smackay 13y ago
  While a journalist may pursue the truth, news organizations only pursue readers.
- dhimes 13y ago
  Maybe because they didn't know either, and didn't even know it was something to be questioned?
  - mikeash 13y ago
    That would make them massively incompetent. You hear reports that phones from this plane are "ringing". Wow! This has massive implications! That means they survived the crash and are somehow within range of a cell tower! That's huge! Maybe I should check with an expert before printing this to make sure I have it right? But no, they just skip that last step. I can forgive the first parts. A single person can't know everything. But not checking such a huge idea with an expert before printing it as "news" is ridiculous.
    - BrandonMarc 13y ago
      News orgs that do full diligence and research do not get to break the story first. In the competitive landscape, speed to publish has a massive impact on what gets reported and how. After all, an article can be "updated" later ... or not. If it's a big enough change to the story, well then that's just a brand-new story, and you heard it here first, folks! Now a word from our sponsor ...
      - mikeash 13y ago
        And thus I could understand (even if still think it was terrible) if one place had gotten ahold of this story and run with it. But it's been floating around for days now. Everybody is reporting on it, over and over again.
- stinos 13y ago
  In that time, the caller will often still hear a "ringing" tone. actually this was surprising (and news) to me: I'm in Belgium, and I don't think this ever occurred to me. If the phone is not found (as in, truned off), you don't get any ringing. Just some silence followed by either voicemail or some message saying the correspondent is unreachable and then voicemail.
  - josh2600 13y ago
    This is true for calls inside your home network. When you place a call to an on-net device, the network knows almost instantaneously if you're available or not. Let's say you're roaming: how does your home network know how to reach you? Without going into a lot of detail, that information has to be relayed from your roaming carrier to your core carrier. Most likely, the ringing you hear is the border of the home network waiting for a response from the last registered roaming partner network. As in all cases, every tone you hear on the network these days is just an arbitrary audio file and has nothing to do with network operation today. Phones ringing, busy tones, etc. are all relics held over from the old days to make people feel better and more comfortable.
  - DSMan195276 13y ago
    Well it's worth keeping in mind that the ringing you hear is coming from the cell-phone tower / service provider / etc. and not the called person's phone anyway whether or not they're on the network. I don't know the specifics on how a tower determines if a phone is or isn't on the network at the current moment, but I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that the service provider wants to appear to be fast, and thus starts playing the ringing tone immediately after the call is placed (Rather then wait). This definitely happens in the US, I can attest to that, I'm surprised to hear this doesn't happen everywhere else. At the same time, it's not like it really makes any difference one way or the other. It is a curious thing though. It seems to be like computer networks, where Ex. if you ping a non-existent address you just sit there waiting until a sufficient amount of time has gone by that you decide they aren't on the other side.
mrfusion 13y ago
As a counterpoint, when I call a US phone that is shut off, the call seems to go straight to voicemail.
- csbrooks 13y ago
  Yeah, why is that? I guess when you shut the phone off the right way, it signs off the network or something? But what if you just pop the battery out with no warning?
  - josh2600 13y ago
    The call will go straight to voicemail if the last registered network was your home network. It doesn't go straight to voicemail if the last registered network is an international roaming partner. Source: I'm a huge telco nerd working at 2600hz.com.
  - BrandonMarc 13y ago
    When you turn of your phone, it tells the network first so the network won't go looking for it from a different tower than the last one pinged. If you pop the battery out, this doesn't happen, and the network isn't sure if your phone is connected to any network or not. These are things discovered during the recent bouts Ukranian of protests ... after all, some governments would very much like to know which of its citizens are participating in a protest. Recent Urkanian protests have helped shed light on these facts (along with revelations from NSA / CIA snooping). http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/21/ukraine-unrest-text-messages-protesters-mass-riot http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/21/ukraine-unrest-...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
ape4 13y ago
Maybe its time to upgrade the ringing sound. There could be a different sound for each stage of getting the call thru. Until traditional ringing when the phone is actually ringing.

11 points by galapago 13y ago

We needed experts to tell us this? I guess it's a good example of how folk knowledge about technology is often wrong, and how UI transplanted from an old system to a new system can lead users to make invalid assumptions.

mikeash 13y ago

This whole cell phone discussion is by far the most idiotic thing I've seen relating to MH370. I can't believe I've seen so many articles attempting to present "both sides" of it. Newsflash: if you dial a cell phone number, the network has to search for the phone. If that phone is, say, at the bottom of the ocean, the network can spend a while searching before it gives up. In that time, the caller will often still hear a "ringing" tone. I can understand why people might not know this and think that it somehow means something. I cannot understand why any so-called "journalist" or "news organization" would ever take the idea seriously for even a minute, let alone run a story about it.

ChuckMcM 13y ago
I agree with this, but I also note that if the plane were hijacked/subverted and flown to some other airport, folks do tend to forget and leave there cell phones on in over head bins and what not so it would be interesting to track down any tower pings for cell phones associated with any of the 200+ passengers on towers in the area. Hard to co-ordinate though especially in south east asia with a variety of providers.
- mikeash 13y ago
  I would not be surprised if this had been done and the result was "we have no signal from any of these". But that doesn't get printed, because any individual provider saying that doesn't mean the phone is actually unreachable, and it's not a compelling story.... My point is that these "ringing" phones tell us nothing. The behavior is consistent with a hijacked plane but it's also consistent with one that crashed into the ocean and sank without a trace. All it tells us is that the people aren't alive and well within range of a cell network, and we knew that already.
smackay 13y ago
While a journalist may pursue the truth, news organizations only pursue readers.
dhimes 13y ago
Maybe because they didn't know either, and didn't even know it was something to be questioned?
- mikeash 13y ago
  That would make them massively incompetent. You hear reports that phones from this plane are "ringing". Wow! This has massive implications! That means they survived the crash and are somehow within range of a cell tower! That's huge! Maybe I should check with an expert before printing this to make sure I have it right? But no, they just skip that last step. I can forgive the first parts. A single person can't know everything. But not checking such a huge idea with an expert before printing it as "news" is ridiculous.
  - BrandonMarc 13y ago
    News orgs that do full diligence and research do not get to break the story first. In the competitive landscape, speed to publish has a massive impact on what gets reported and how. After all, an article can be "updated" later ... or not. If it's a big enough change to the story, well then that's just a brand-new story, and you heard it here first, folks! Now a word from our sponsor ...
    - mikeash 13y ago
      And thus I could understand (even if still think it was terrible) if one place had gotten ahold of this story and run with it. But it's been floating around for days now. Everybody is reporting on it, over and over again.
stinos 13y ago
In that time, the caller will often still hear a "ringing" tone. actually this was surprising (and news) to me: I'm in Belgium, and I don't think this ever occurred to me. If the phone is not found (as in, truned off), you don't get any ringing. Just some silence followed by either voicemail or some message saying the correspondent is unreachable and then voicemail.
- josh2600 13y ago
  This is true for calls inside your home network. When you place a call to an on-net device, the network knows almost instantaneously if you're available or not. Let's say you're roaming: how does your home network know how to reach you? Without going into a lot of detail, that information has to be relayed from your roaming carrier to your core carrier. Most likely, the ringing you hear is the border of the home network waiting for a response from the last registered roaming partner network. As in all cases, every tone you hear on the network these days is just an arbitrary audio file and has nothing to do with network operation today. Phones ringing, busy tones, etc. are all relics held over from the old days to make people feel better and more comfortable.
- DSMan195276 13y ago
  Well it's worth keeping in mind that the ringing you hear is coming from the cell-phone tower / service provider / etc. and not the called person's phone anyway whether or not they're on the network. I don't know the specifics on how a tower determines if a phone is or isn't on the network at the current moment, but I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that the service provider wants to appear to be fast, and thus starts playing the ringing tone immediately after the call is placed (Rather then wait). This definitely happens in the US, I can attest to that, I'm surprised to hear this doesn't happen everywhere else. At the same time, it's not like it really makes any difference one way or the other. It is a curious thing though. It seems to be like computer networks, where Ex. if you ping a non-existent address you just sit there waiting until a sufficient amount of time has gone by that you decide they aren't on the other side.

mrfusion 13y ago

As a counterpoint, when I call a US phone that is shut off, the call seems to go straight to voicemail.

csbrooks 13y ago
Yeah, why is that? I guess when you shut the phone off the right way, it signs off the network or something? But what if you just pop the battery out with no warning?
- josh2600 13y ago
  The call will go straight to voicemail if the last registered network was your home network. It doesn't go straight to voicemail if the last registered network is an international roaming partner. Source: I'm a huge telco nerd working at 2600hz.com.
- BrandonMarc 13y ago
  When you turn of your phone, it tells the network first so the network won't go looking for it from a different tower than the last one pinged. If you pop the battery out, this doesn't happen, and the network isn't sure if your phone is connected to any network or not. These are things discovered during the recent bouts Ukranian of protests ... after all, some governments would very much like to know which of its citizens are participating in a protest. Recent Urkanian protests have helped shed light on these facts (along with revelations from NSA / CIA snooping). http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/21/ukraine-unrest-text-messages-protesters-mass-riot http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/21/ukraine-unrest-...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

ape4 13y ago

Maybe its time to upgrade the ringing sound. There could be a different sound for each stage of getting the call thru. Until traditional ringing when the phone is actually ringing.