6 ms·

Yeah, I live very, very close to that area. If I go more than 30 miles West, I run into that shithole that is 'The American Dream'. If it was within my power

by mkautzm 13y ago

Yeah, I live very, very close to that area. If I go more than 30 miles West, I run into that shithole that is 'The American Dream'. If it was within my power to turn back the clock and make the calls that needed to be made at the time, I'd have never let that boom start. To say that the northwestern third of North Dakota has been destroyed is an understatement; It brings me to tears just thinking about it.

protomyth 13y ago
"North Dakota has been destroyed is an understatement" Please explain how you see this?
- mkautzm 13y ago
  First, the culture of the state is being 'ruined'. One of the neatest thing about growing up in rural ND with roots in small towns is that your network of people automatically extends about 100 miles in any direction. Just last week I visited a town about 120 miles removed from my own home town and this conversation played out: "Hi, I'm Tom Becker, I'm here to do X" "Becker? Do you know Bill Becker?" "I do! He's my cousin!" And immediately everyone is totally disarmed and we have common ground even though we live half a state away. Everyone really does have no more than 1 or 2 social links separating everyone else in a region. Your last name is a really powerful device in a conversation with other people and it's really awesome to have that kind of link to a people in a country that otherwise is completely devoid of that and culture in general. With the huge influx of people in north western ND, that is no longer true of that area. In fact, my 'regional social bubble' has been effectively cut to about 70% of it's original size because the people that live west of me aren't the same people that used to live west of me. This brings me to my second problem: People don't want to, or literally cannot stay in their home towns. It has become very, very expensive to live west of Glen Ullin, and if you are a woman, it has also become very dangerous. Renting in Dickinson costs comically huge amounts of money and if you happened to own a house in Williston, well your property tax has went up by a factor of four so sucks to be you if you can't pay that any more. If you want to purchase gas in Dickinson or any further west, you need to prepay for it, which is an idea that didn't exist in the region before all this, but again, crime has become an issue. Somehow, Williston is still operating in the red because infrastructure costs money turns out and paying for all the public services required of a city that is growing at the rate it is is crippling, not to mention the police force is way understaffed because the kinds of people that are attracted to these kinds of jobs are also the kind of people that tend to commit a cocktail of felonies in a state where crime may have well used to not exist. Meanwhile, despite all these problems, the state has decided to play super nice with the oil companies and reduce tax rates for them no less than twice since they've shown up for reasons I can't quite comprehend (again, Williston and other cities still operate in the red because of all of this.) The existing infrastructure is going to total shit and the roads are incredibly dangerous, especially during the winter months. We have trains that are blowing up in cities 250 miles away for reasons that may or may not be caused by this boom. There are a dozen oil spills every month and the drinking water has become very questionable for cities that are in the Bakken region. All this on top of what has been done to the environment proper. What used to be rolling plains is now a shitshow of wells and flares. Unlike coal mines, which are required to restore the prairie to a state that was equal to or better than how they found it, no such strict laws exist for oil companies, so guess what it's going to look like 30 years from now. I mean, you literally have coal companies like Great River displaying the state of their mines after restoration and bragging about how much better everything is after they leave with 'before, during, after' picture galleries. That will probably not exist in the oil company's PR portfolio. Finally, the state was operating in the black before all this. We didn't need this at all. What the state should have said is something to the effect of, "You can come and drill, but you will pay for everything you do. Any cost of anything, whether it be infrastructure, property taxes of existing citizens, expansion of emergency and civil services, eventual decommissioning costs, spills, accidents and problems and all their associated costs -- those costs are your's to take on, plus taxes. If you don't want to pay all that, then kindly consider your requests denied until a point where you are willing to actually pay for the hell you are about to unleash on the state." That of course didn't happen, so now we are here. We have a third of the state converted to a total wasteland, their residents effectively told to 'deal with it', all for reasons that almost certainly come back to the almighty dollar that only a select few will actually ever see. Fuck the oil boom
  - protomyth 13y ago
    > One of the neatest thing about growing up in rural ND with roots in small towns is that your network of people automatically extends about 100 miles in any direction. I guess that might be for you. I grew up on a reservation and knew people from other reservations, but I never had that social network you talk of. I did almost get my butt kicked in a small neighboring town, because I had my high school jacket on[1]. This quaint Mayberry stuff wasn't in my experience. I have noticed that the border towns[2] tended to be happy that we spent our money there and liked to raise funds by setting up checkpoints on the days welfare checks were distributed[3]. My perspective is that there are a lot of new people and some are good and some are bad. Its time to rediscover the folks around you. I’ve noticed that quite a few of the new arrivals are pretty nice people. > This brings me to my second problem: People don't want to, or literally cannot stay in their home towns. This is a big problem for any boom area (Hi, Silicon Valley folks). The state needs to get on the infrastructure a lot faster than it has been. All these superficial articles are not doing us any favors. God help us if we get another flood year. I can only imagine what the Army Corps of Engineers will screw up this time. > We have trains that are blowing up in cities 250 miles away for reasons that may or may not be caused by this boom. Talk to BNSF about deploying the newer railcars or start talking about pipelines[4]. > There are a dozen oil spills every month and the drinking water has become very questionable for cities that are in the Bakken region. I would need to see stats and actual enviormental reports, not the fakery done in PA. > Finally, the state was operating in the black before all this. We didn't need this at all. Yes, we did. North Dakota was dying and nothing was bringing people back. More importantly from my perspective, the tribe nearest the oil fields now has a source of money that the state cannot force into “social programs”. The casinos were a moral compromise and the draconian restriction of not being able to pay tribal members with the money as a dividend on a tribally run business was vicious. Besides, reservations were located in places that are not next to the bigger cities[5]. I don’t know what the state is charging for taxes[6], but the tribe is doing fine with its fees. Better, most tribal members are making money for themselves and not stuck in welfare. 1) I’m white, my biological dad is a enrolled member of a tribe 2) bordering the reservation 3) Without public transit, poor people drive cars that often are not well maintained and often have safety violations 4) amazing about the billionare friend of POTUS that owns a railroad 5) when placing a population that could stage an uprising, it is best to keep it away from the “good folks”. 6) I understand it might be a bit more than Texas which could be a problem with Texas moving to fracking
- MrMember 13y ago
  Much of western ND today has nothing in common with the western ND I grew up in. City populations are tripling, and they often aren't the people you want moving in next door. Violent crime is skyrocketing and stretched thin police departments can't keep up. Schools have trouble finding teachers because they can't offer a salary that matches the absurd cost of living in these cities. I go back home a couple of times a year and driving through cities like Dickinson is an experience. It's barely recognizable. The roads weren't designed to handle the traffic they're seeing. The expansion these places are seeing is insane. I'm glad I moved away before the oil boom, it isn't a place I would want to live today.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    Here is the actual crime data: http://www.ag.nd.gov/Reports/BCIReports/CrimeHomicide/Crime12.pdf http://www.ag.nd.gov/Reports/BCIReports/CrimeHomicide/Crime1... 7.9% increase last year (10.9% increase the previous year) except for rape (which they seriously need to deal with by dropping the hammer on these people).
forgingahead 13y ago
Exactly how do you heat your house, and how much do you pay for that bill?
- mkautzm 13y ago
  I live in an apartment building in which heat is payed, so I can't be a data point there. I'm 90% sure it's electric (As opposed to gas, which is quite common in the area, especially the more rural areas). My sister however does live in an area where gas is common and they have a 1,000 gallon tank for it. It costs them about 4 times what they normally paid for it. What the cost is exactly, I'm not sure. I know it used to be cheap and what what it is now is really expensive.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - lou2ser 13y ago
    Anyone else hear a WHOOSH sound?
    - mkautzm 13y ago
      I'm a little dense in the morning :) That said, nearly every kilowatt of power that is actually sourced to ND is coal or hydro. Also, I'm willing to pay for the cost of advancement away from oil. If my energy bill doubles because the majority of my power is wind, solar, hydro with support from nuclear and gas, then so be it. If I have to pay 6 dollars a gallon to keep the boom away from my home, it's a price I'd gladly pay. I don't make insane money. I pull in about $44k in a place where a mid-range apartment costs $1,000 / month to rent. I'm not swimming in cash, but I'll make it all work if I can have the home I knew when I was a teenager back.
- ryguytilidie 13y ago
  I like this arguing tactic of intentional obtuseness!

by mkautzm 13y ago

protomyth 13y ago

"North Dakota has been destroyed is an understatement" Please explain how you see this?

mkautzm 13y ago
First, the culture of the state is being 'ruined'. One of the neatest thing about growing up in rural ND with roots in small towns is that your network of people automatically extends about 100 miles in any direction. Just last week I visited a town about 120 miles removed from my own home town and this conversation played out: "Hi, I'm Tom Becker, I'm here to do X" "Becker? Do you know Bill Becker?" "I do! He's my cousin!" And immediately everyone is totally disarmed and we have common ground even though we live half a state away. Everyone really does have no more than 1 or 2 social links separating everyone else in a region. Your last name is a really powerful device in a conversation with other people and it's really awesome to have that kind of link to a people in a country that otherwise is completely devoid of that and culture in general. With the huge influx of people in north western ND, that is no longer true of that area. In fact, my 'regional social bubble' has been effectively cut to about 70% of it's original size because the people that live west of me aren't the same people that used to live west of me. This brings me to my second problem: People don't want to, or literally cannot stay in their home towns. It has become very, very expensive to live west of Glen Ullin, and if you are a woman, it has also become very dangerous. Renting in Dickinson costs comically huge amounts of money and if you happened to own a house in Williston, well your property tax has went up by a factor of four so sucks to be you if you can't pay that any more. If you want to purchase gas in Dickinson or any further west, you need to prepay for it, which is an idea that didn't exist in the region before all this, but again, crime has become an issue. Somehow, Williston is still operating in the red because infrastructure costs money turns out and paying for all the public services required of a city that is growing at the rate it is is crippling, not to mention the police force is way understaffed because the kinds of people that are attracted to these kinds of jobs are also the kind of people that tend to commit a cocktail of felonies in a state where crime may have well used to not exist. Meanwhile, despite all these problems, the state has decided to play super nice with the oil companies and reduce tax rates for them no less than twice since they've shown up for reasons I can't quite comprehend (again, Williston and other cities still operate in the red because of all of this.) The existing infrastructure is going to total shit and the roads are incredibly dangerous, especially during the winter months. We have trains that are blowing up in cities 250 miles away for reasons that may or may not be caused by this boom. There are a dozen oil spills every month and the drinking water has become very questionable for cities that are in the Bakken region. All this on top of what has been done to the environment proper. What used to be rolling plains is now a shitshow of wells and flares. Unlike coal mines, which are required to restore the prairie to a state that was equal to or better than how they found it, no such strict laws exist for oil companies, so guess what it's going to look like 30 years from now. I mean, you literally have coal companies like Great River displaying the state of their mines after restoration and bragging about how much better everything is after they leave with 'before, during, after' picture galleries. That will probably not exist in the oil company's PR portfolio. Finally, the state was operating in the black before all this. We didn't need this at all. What the state should have said is something to the effect of, "You can come and drill, but you will pay for everything you do. Any cost of anything, whether it be infrastructure, property taxes of existing citizens, expansion of emergency and civil services, eventual decommissioning costs, spills, accidents and problems and all their associated costs -- those costs are your's to take on, plus taxes. If you don't want to pay all that, then kindly consider your requests denied until a point where you are willing to actually pay for the hell you are about to unleash on the state." That of course didn't happen, so now we are here. We have a third of the state converted to a total wasteland, their residents effectively told to 'deal with it', all for reasons that almost certainly come back to the almighty dollar that only a select few will actually ever see. Fuck the oil boom
- protomyth 13y ago
  > One of the neatest thing about growing up in rural ND with roots in small towns is that your network of people automatically extends about 100 miles in any direction. I guess that might be for you. I grew up on a reservation and knew people from other reservations, but I never had that social network you talk of. I did almost get my butt kicked in a small neighboring town, because I had my high school jacket on[1]. This quaint Mayberry stuff wasn't in my experience. I have noticed that the border towns[2] tended to be happy that we spent our money there and liked to raise funds by setting up checkpoints on the days welfare checks were distributed[3]. My perspective is that there are a lot of new people and some are good and some are bad. Its time to rediscover the folks around you. I’ve noticed that quite a few of the new arrivals are pretty nice people. > This brings me to my second problem: People don't want to, or literally cannot stay in their home towns. This is a big problem for any boom area (Hi, Silicon Valley folks). The state needs to get on the infrastructure a lot faster than it has been. All these superficial articles are not doing us any favors. God help us if we get another flood year. I can only imagine what the Army Corps of Engineers will screw up this time. > We have trains that are blowing up in cities 250 miles away for reasons that may or may not be caused by this boom. Talk to BNSF about deploying the newer railcars or start talking about pipelines[4]. > There are a dozen oil spills every month and the drinking water has become very questionable for cities that are in the Bakken region. I would need to see stats and actual enviormental reports, not the fakery done in PA. > Finally, the state was operating in the black before all this. We didn't need this at all. Yes, we did. North Dakota was dying and nothing was bringing people back. More importantly from my perspective, the tribe nearest the oil fields now has a source of money that the state cannot force into “social programs”. The casinos were a moral compromise and the draconian restriction of not being able to pay tribal members with the money as a dividend on a tribally run business was vicious. Besides, reservations were located in places that are not next to the bigger cities[5]. I don’t know what the state is charging for taxes[6], but the tribe is doing fine with its fees. Better, most tribal members are making money for themselves and not stuck in welfare. 1) I’m white, my biological dad is a enrolled member of a tribe 2) bordering the reservation 3) Without public transit, poor people drive cars that often are not well maintained and often have safety violations 4) amazing about the billionare friend of POTUS that owns a railroad 5) when placing a population that could stage an uprising, it is best to keep it away from the “good folks”. 6) I understand it might be a bit more than Texas which could be a problem with Texas moving to fracking
MrMember 13y ago
Much of western ND today has nothing in common with the western ND I grew up in. City populations are tripling, and they often aren't the people you want moving in next door. Violent crime is skyrocketing and stretched thin police departments can't keep up. Schools have trouble finding teachers because they can't offer a salary that matches the absurd cost of living in these cities. I go back home a couple of times a year and driving through cities like Dickinson is an experience. It's barely recognizable. The roads weren't designed to handle the traffic they're seeing. The expansion these places are seeing is insane. I'm glad I moved away before the oil boom, it isn't a place I would want to live today.
- protomyth 13y ago
  Here is the actual crime data: http://www.ag.nd.gov/Reports/BCIReports/CrimeHomicide/Crime12.pdf http://www.ag.nd.gov/Reports/BCIReports/CrimeHomicide/Crime1... 7.9% increase last year (10.9% increase the previous year) except for rape (which they seriously need to deal with by dropping the hammer on these people).

forgingahead 13y ago

Exactly how do you heat your house, and how much do you pay for that bill?

mkautzm 13y ago
I live in an apartment building in which heat is payed, so I can't be a data point there. I'm 90% sure it's electric (As opposed to gas, which is quite common in the area, especially the more rural areas). My sister however does live in an area where gas is common and they have a 1,000 gallon tank for it. It costs them about 4 times what they normally paid for it. What the cost is exactly, I'm not sure. I know it used to be cheap and what what it is now is really expensive.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- lou2ser 13y ago
  Anyone else hear a WHOOSH sound?
  - mkautzm 13y ago
    I'm a little dense in the morning :) That said, nearly every kilowatt of power that is actually sourced to ND is coal or hydro. Also, I'm willing to pay for the cost of advancement away from oil. If my energy bill doubles because the majority of my power is wind, solar, hydro with support from nuclear and gas, then so be it. If I have to pay 6 dollars a gallon to keep the boom away from my home, it's a price I'd gladly pay. I don't make insane money. I pull in about $44k in a place where a mid-range apartment costs $1,000 / month to rent. I'm not swimming in cash, but I'll make it all work if I can have the home I knew when I was a teenager back.
ryguytilidie 13y ago
I like this arguing tactic of intentional obtuseness!