4 ms·

And there's doubling in the law. Cease and desist, plus a few others I can't remember.

baddox 13y ago
Cool. I had never heard of that one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_doublet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_doublet
gumby 13y ago
"Cease and desist" is a different, and also interesting, case from the field/table distinction baddox referred to. According to Jespersen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jespersen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jespersen ) phrases like "kith and kin" or "cattle and kine" are very old in English and far predate the Norman invasion. My kid was learning English around the time the brand "Da Kine" became popular. In his second grade way he looked it up in the dictionary and decided it was a farm brand. Jesperson's "Growth and Structure of the English Language" is a fantastic book by the way.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  But wait... cattle and kine are the same thing, much like cease and desist. Kith and kin aren't the same. Do you also think it's strange to say "friends and family"?
  - merrua 13y ago
    cattle and kine is another doublet. two different words used by two different groups. kith and kin, is like saying neighbours/extending group and family. but your right its not a doubling, but more a broading.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    'kin' comes from 'ken', so 'kinfolk' are folks that think like you. What does 'kith' mean?
    - lovemenot 13y ago
      >> 'kin' comes from 'ken', so 'kinfolk' are folks that think like you Is that right? I cannot find such a reference. Could you please give a source for the etymology.
      - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
        I got that from an author, who apparently took liberties with the definition (see below).
    - merrua 13y ago
      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kith http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kith cȳththu is like tuatha, I always thought.
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      So, nothing you said is correct. Ken [know] < OE cennan "make known; declare". Kin [family] < OE cynn "family" (among other meanings, but that one seems apt). http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=kin http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=kin Kith [] < OE cyðð also meaning family, but alternatively neighbors, countrymen, or acquaintances. Obsolete and only extant today in the fixed phrase "kith and kin", but originally meaning [countrymen] and later [friends]. Your kith and kin are all your relationships, blood or otherwise. Your kin are the blood and marriage relationships.
      - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
        Thanks for being so kind. One thing I said isn't correct. That definition of 'kinfolk' came from a writer, Forrest Carter, so I blame them.
        huxley 13y ago
        The definition of 'kinfolk' was probably pretty minor among the list of fabrications by Forrest Carter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Earl_Carter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Earl_Carter
grey-area 13y ago
How interesting, thanks. I'd never paused to consider the origin of tautologies like terms and conditions, somehow you just soak them up and use them without thinking.
fbomb 13y ago
I always thought that meant "stop doing what you're doing" (cease) and "don't do it again afterwards" (desist).

Cool. I had never heard of that one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_doublet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_doublet

gumby 13y ago

"Cease and desist" is a different, and also interesting, case from the field/table distinction baddox referred to. According to Jespersen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jespersen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jespersen ) phrases like "kith and kin" or "cattle and kine" are very old in English and far predate the Norman invasion. My kid was learning English around the time the brand "Da Kine" became popular. In his second grade way he looked it up in the dictionary and decided it was a farm brand. Jesperson's "Growth and Structure of the English Language" is a fantastic book by the way.

thaumasiotes 13y ago
But wait... cattle and kine are the same thing, much like cease and desist. Kith and kin aren't the same. Do you also think it's strange to say "friends and family"?
- merrua 13y ago
  cattle and kine is another doublet. two different words used by two different groups. kith and kin, is like saying neighbours/extending group and family. but your right its not a doubling, but more a broading.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  'kin' comes from 'ken', so 'kinfolk' are folks that think like you. What does 'kith' mean?
  - lovemenot 13y ago
    >> 'kin' comes from 'ken', so 'kinfolk' are folks that think like you Is that right? I cannot find such a reference. Could you please give a source for the etymology.
    - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
      I got that from an author, who apparently took liberties with the definition (see below).
  - merrua 13y ago
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kith http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kith cȳththu is like tuatha, I always thought.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    So, nothing you said is correct. Ken [know] < OE cennan "make known; declare". Kin [family] < OE cynn "family" (among other meanings, but that one seems apt). http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=kin http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=kin Kith [] < OE cyðð also meaning family, but alternatively neighbors, countrymen, or acquaintances. Obsolete and only extant today in the fixed phrase "kith and kin", but originally meaning [countrymen] and later [friends]. Your kith and kin are all your relationships, blood or otherwise. Your kin are the blood and marriage relationships.
    - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
      Thanks for being so kind. One thing I said isn't correct. That definition of 'kinfolk' came from a writer, Forrest Carter, so I blame them.
      - huxley 13y ago
        The definition of 'kinfolk' was probably pretty minor among the list of fabrications by Forrest Carter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Earl_Carter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Earl_Carter

grey-area 13y ago

How interesting, thanks. I'd never paused to consider the origin of tautologies like terms and conditions, somehow you just soak them up and use them without thinking.

fbomb 13y ago

I always thought that meant "stop doing what you're doing" (cease) and "don't do it again afterwards" (desist).