4 ms·

A lot of this is just "person who's had white-collar job for years doesn't get how difficult service jobs are", but making your already low-paid employees do un

A lot of this is just "person who's had white-collar job for years doesn't get how difficult service jobs are", but making your already low-paid employees do unpaid overtime work is s-k-e-t-c-h-y, and actively illegal.

scarmig 13y ago
True, but I'm betting more than a few HN folk qualify as a "person who's had white-collar job for years [who] doesn't get how difficult service jobs are." I'm actually impressed that we don't (yet) have a chorus of people saying he's overpaid or that he deserves it.
- acheron 13y ago
  The guy was a reporter who made racist jokes and comments about people he was supposed to be covering, and subsequently got fired for it. And then, surprise, no one else wanted to hire him to do reporting. [1] "deserves" is a strong word, but actions have consequences. [1] Until now, I guess?
  - ForHackernews 13y ago
    Source? I'd never heard of this guy before.
    - eCa 13y ago
      http://www.politico.com/reporters/JosephWilliams.html http://www.politico.com/reporters/JosephWilliams.html Apparently, Politico doesn't remove biographies of people they fire (he was fired two years ago).
    - zilbernet 13y ago
      He discusses it in the first few paragraphs of the article.
  - joshreads 13y ago
    I mean, do you think that the job conditions described are meant to be a punishment for his misdeeds as a journalist? Because I think you'll find that many people who did not do such things also labor under them.
  - VLM 13y ago
    Actually, he made a fairly accurate observation about the behavior of a guy he was covering. Some extremist supporters of the guy he was covering were not very happy with that, but it doesn't matter if 95% of the population says "duh, obviously". (edited to add, reporting that the emperor has no clothes is not just a firing offense, but an economic death penalty, or if not an economic death penalty its at least incredibly harsh... I saw that fable as a theatrical play as a child, and have often thought the inevitable conclusion, as shown in this example, is more interesting than the play as portrayed.)
  - raving-richard 13y ago
    Racist jokes? Can you please link or quote some of these racist jokes? In the article, he quotes himself saying: “Romney is very, very comfortable, it seems, with people who are like him. That’s one of the reasons why he seems so stiff and awkward in town hall settings … But when he comes on ‘Fox and Friends,’ they’re like him. They’re white folks who are very much relaxed in their own company.” Which I don't think is racist. Presumably, he also could have said "they're men", or "they're middle aged", but would not have been accused of being sexist or ageist. This while article adds weight to my opinion that the USA is not a civilized country. Sure, there are the trappings. But a society that can afford to, but does not, look after those on the margins, is not civilized.
    - ufmace 13y ago
      Sounds a little ridiculous, all right, but that's politics these days. I paid more attention to this stuff in the early 2000s, and was more on the right, so I remember what seemed like countless examples of Republican figures being hounded to the destruction of their careers for having made some statement that could be interpreted as being vaguely racist once in their lives. Now people on the center-left are getting the same treatment. I wouldn't say they deserve it either, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. Maybe someday we can all learn to back off from these ridiculous media feeding frenzies powered by dug-up dirt, but I'm not holding my breath.
    - nsxwolf 13y ago
      I don't think it's racist either, but imagine a white reporter saying "they're black folks who are very much relaxed in their own company". I don't think that's automatically racist, but the torches and pitchforks would be out in full force.
  - vijayr 13y ago
    First of all, what he said wasn't racist. Even if it were, should someone be banned from his profession for life, for one mistake? That is a very cruel punishment. If we banned people for life for saying dumb things, we would have no politicians, movie stars etc left.
  - acheron 13y ago
    Huh, that's a lot of downvotes. Sorry for, you know, mentioning an event that occurred that provides context for the article.
TheCoelacanth 13y ago
Wage theft is sketchy and illegal, but also extremely common.
bluedino 13y ago
>> "person who's had white-collar job for years doesn't get how difficult service jobs are" Or, sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day is really, really easy compared to having to actually DO something at a service job.
- VLM 13y ago
  I believe you did not read the article, as less than one paragraph was on the topic of physical labor, and the rest of the article was about extremely toxic occasionally outright illegal employee / employer relations. Luckily, due to the "retailapocalpse" or whatever its called, soon virtually no one will have to labor under those conditions, because there will be almost no positions like that. Not that Amazon's warehouses are some kind of workers paradise. I worked my way thru school in retail supermarkets roughly contemporaneous with the author's youthful experiences a couple decades ago. I see things have gone somewhat downhill since then...
  - gknoy 13y ago
    > Not that Amazon's warehouses are some kind of workers paradise. I read an article a while back (apologies for no links) that basically had a reporter go work at an Amazon warehouse as a stocker. It sounded like the type of hell I wouldn't wish on an enemy.
    - jmyc 13y ago
      Here it is: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...
Domenic_S 13y ago
Between ages 15-21 I worked a lot of retail. I had managers who would do the "on time is late" thing, or make me clock out and then wait for 20 minutes for them to unlock the door at closing time. I knew those things weren't legal, and I'd make a stink about it. I was an exemplary worker, which I'm sure afforded me some leeway, but more importantly I was young, white, and living at home with my middle-class parents. I didn't need the job. I wanted the job of course (56k modems aren't free!) but I didn't have the fear that I or my family might starve if I talked back. What's the solution? Mandatory severance for every job?
- krstck 13y ago
  > What's the solution? Mandatory severance for every job? At the risk of opening a-whole-nother can of worms.... universal basic income.
pnathan 13y ago
When I did retail & fast food work, I don't recall having to do unpaid work. Showing up "on the floor" at time was expected, but that was no more than stuffing my bag in the break room and going out. That said, if I was looking at the prospect of working in these shops long-term, I'd also be seeing what I could do to unionize the shop - they are a pretty crummy environment with abhorrent pay for anyone over the age of 16 (as the author points out).
- thecyborganizer 13y ago
  > That said, if I was looking at the prospect of working in these shops long-term, I'd also be seeing what I could do to unionize the shop - they are a pretty crummy environment with abhorrent pay for anyone over the age of 16 (as the author points out). I respect your optimism, but standard practice at big retailers for anyone who even breathes word of unionization is to fire them instantly. If that doesn't do it, they close the store. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart#Labor_union_opposition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart#Labor_unio...

scarmig 13y ago

True, but I'm betting more than a few HN folk qualify as a "person who's had white-collar job for years [who] doesn't get how difficult service jobs are." I'm actually impressed that we don't (yet) have a chorus of people saying he's overpaid or that he deserves it.

acheron 13y ago
The guy was a reporter who made racist jokes and comments about people he was supposed to be covering, and subsequently got fired for it. And then, surprise, no one else wanted to hire him to do reporting. [1] "deserves" is a strong word, but actions have consequences. [1] Until now, I guess?
- ForHackernews 13y ago
  Source? I'd never heard of this guy before.
  - eCa 13y ago
    http://www.politico.com/reporters/JosephWilliams.html http://www.politico.com/reporters/JosephWilliams.html Apparently, Politico doesn't remove biographies of people they fire (he was fired two years ago).
  - zilbernet 13y ago
    He discusses it in the first few paragraphs of the article.
- joshreads 13y ago
  I mean, do you think that the job conditions described are meant to be a punishment for his misdeeds as a journalist? Because I think you'll find that many people who did not do such things also labor under them.
- VLM 13y ago
  Actually, he made a fairly accurate observation about the behavior of a guy he was covering. Some extremist supporters of the guy he was covering were not very happy with that, but it doesn't matter if 95% of the population says "duh, obviously". (edited to add, reporting that the emperor has no clothes is not just a firing offense, but an economic death penalty, or if not an economic death penalty its at least incredibly harsh... I saw that fable as a theatrical play as a child, and have often thought the inevitable conclusion, as shown in this example, is more interesting than the play as portrayed.)
- raving-richard 13y ago
  Racist jokes? Can you please link or quote some of these racist jokes? In the article, he quotes himself saying: “Romney is very, very comfortable, it seems, with people who are like him. That’s one of the reasons why he seems so stiff and awkward in town hall settings … But when he comes on ‘Fox and Friends,’ they’re like him. They’re white folks who are very much relaxed in their own company.” Which I don't think is racist. Presumably, he also could have said "they're men", or "they're middle aged", but would not have been accused of being sexist or ageist. This while article adds weight to my opinion that the USA is not a civilized country. Sure, there are the trappings. But a society that can afford to, but does not, look after those on the margins, is not civilized.
  - ufmace 13y ago
    Sounds a little ridiculous, all right, but that's politics these days. I paid more attention to this stuff in the early 2000s, and was more on the right, so I remember what seemed like countless examples of Republican figures being hounded to the destruction of their careers for having made some statement that could be interpreted as being vaguely racist once in their lives. Now people on the center-left are getting the same treatment. I wouldn't say they deserve it either, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. Maybe someday we can all learn to back off from these ridiculous media feeding frenzies powered by dug-up dirt, but I'm not holding my breath.
  - nsxwolf 13y ago
    I don't think it's racist either, but imagine a white reporter saying "they're black folks who are very much relaxed in their own company". I don't think that's automatically racist, but the torches and pitchforks would be out in full force.
- vijayr 13y ago
  First of all, what he said wasn't racist. Even if it were, should someone be banned from his profession for life, for one mistake? That is a very cruel punishment. If we banned people for life for saying dumb things, we would have no politicians, movie stars etc left.
- acheron 13y ago
  Huh, that's a lot of downvotes. Sorry for, you know, mentioning an event that occurred that provides context for the article.

TheCoelacanth 13y ago

Wage theft is sketchy and illegal, but also extremely common.

bluedino 13y ago

>> "person who's had white-collar job for years doesn't get how difficult service jobs are" Or, sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day is really, really easy compared to having to actually DO something at a service job.

VLM 13y ago
I believe you did not read the article, as less than one paragraph was on the topic of physical labor, and the rest of the article was about extremely toxic occasionally outright illegal employee / employer relations. Luckily, due to the "retailapocalpse" or whatever its called, soon virtually no one will have to labor under those conditions, because there will be almost no positions like that. Not that Amazon's warehouses are some kind of workers paradise. I worked my way thru school in retail supermarkets roughly contemporaneous with the author's youthful experiences a couple decades ago. I see things have gone somewhat downhill since then...
- gknoy 13y ago
  > Not that Amazon's warehouses are some kind of workers paradise. I read an article a while back (apologies for no links) that basically had a reporter go work at an Amazon warehouse as a stocker. It sounded like the type of hell I wouldn't wish on an enemy.
  - jmyc 13y ago
    Here it is: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...

Domenic_S 13y ago

Between ages 15-21 I worked a lot of retail. I had managers who would do the "on time is late" thing, or make me clock out and then wait for 20 minutes for them to unlock the door at closing time. I knew those things weren't legal, and I'd make a stink about it. I was an exemplary worker, which I'm sure afforded me some leeway, but more importantly I was young, white, and living at home with my middle-class parents. I didn't need the job. I wanted the job of course (56k modems aren't free!) but I didn't have the fear that I or my family might starve if I talked back. What's the solution? Mandatory severance for every job?

krstck 13y ago
> What's the solution? Mandatory severance for every job? At the risk of opening a-whole-nother can of worms.... universal basic income.

pnathan 13y ago

When I did retail & fast food work, I don't recall having to do unpaid work. Showing up "on the floor" at time was expected, but that was no more than stuffing my bag in the break room and going out. That said, if I was looking at the prospect of working in these shops long-term, I'd also be seeing what I could do to unionize the shop - they are a pretty crummy environment with abhorrent pay for anyone over the age of 16 (as the author points out).

thecyborganizer 13y ago
> That said, if I was looking at the prospect of working in these shops long-term, I'd also be seeing what I could do to unionize the shop - they are a pretty crummy environment with abhorrent pay for anyone over the age of 16 (as the author points out). I respect your optimism, but standard practice at big retailers for anyone who even breathes word of unionization is to fire them instantly. If that doesn't do it, they close the store. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart#Labor_union_opposition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart#Labor_unio...