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"and anything multiple by zero (or something very small) is still zero (or very small)." Those are people you are so callously and casually equating with zero,

"and anything multiple by zero (or something very small) is still zero (or very small)." Those are people you are so callously and casually equating with zero, and a person's economic status has nothing to do with their value. I can't help but think of this earlier hacker news story: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-tampon-king-who-sparked-a-period-of-change-for-indias-women-7897093.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-tampon-king... A person, living in poverty, solved major problem. In this case, he did his work by hand and by phone. Absolutely something where a communications tool like an internet-enabled laptop would have helped.

VikingCoder 13y ago
I'll presume you're not intentionally misunderstanding... glesica and I believe that the OLPC didn't do near enough to actually try to TEACH. Multiplying 0 teaching times a force-multiplying computer yields 0 teaching.
lordCarbonFiber 13y ago
>Assuming that there is avaliable internet for your internet connected laptop >Assuming there is available electricity for said laptop >Assuming there is clean water, fresh food, good shelter/lighting available so the proprieties lie in developing with said laptop. Technology is an amazing force for positive change. However, I think, as I believe so does the parent, you get more for your money if you first develop the surrounding infrastructure, then help provide the technology. No one is implying that the people living in these areas of the world are worth nothing. The implication is that the foundation around them is minimizing the potential gains via technology.
- VikingCoder 13y ago
  I'm about 50-50 in-between you folks. > Assuming that there is avaliable internet for your internet connected laptop You don't need internet to have a communication tool. Mesh networks can actually work pretty well. OLPC had mesh networks. And they don't need to eventually reach the internet, either. Being able to send a text message to your neighbor, even 100 yards away, could have been pretty powerful. Connect a few of those together in a mesh, and you might be able to communicate MILES away. I don't actually know if the OLPC was any good at this, but it was built out of pieces that could have enabled it. > Assuming there is available electricity for said laptop You don't need electricity for a hand-crank laptop. OLPC had hand-crank power. The fact that you bring up these factually incorrect arguments makes me think you don't actually know anything about OLPC. It's worth educating yourself, they made some interesting and good choices. They also made, in my opinion, some TERRIBLE choices. Oh, and you said "lighting." Since the OLPC was hand-crank powered, it was often the brightest light source available to the families that got them. ...and on to your next point... I think that OLPC computers COULD HAVE HAD instructional videos, like Khan Academy, in how to improve water quality, preserve food, deal with pests and diseases and infections and wounds, reproductive health, building good shelters, identifying cloud patterns. Kind of like a US Army Field Survival Guide. All tailored to the local language and culture. In that respect, it could have been like air-dropping a Peace Corps volunteer with engineering know-how, into a community. Sadly, the OLPC project didn't address those problems.
  - cjbprime 13y ago
    Hi, I worked at OLPC. You might not be aware that OLPC shipped offline Wikipedia snapshots (in an appropriate language) on each laptop, or that people made Khan Academy video packs that were downloadable to a "school server" with enough disk space, or that children who received OLPC laptops helped to translate Khan Academy videos to their own language: http://blog.printf.net/articles/2013/02/01/children-in-peru-write-their-own-history-on-wikipedia/ http://blog.printf.net/articles/2013/02/01/children-in-peru-... http://blog.laptop.org/2011/06/06/khan-academy-videos-and-olpc http://blog.laptop.org/2011/06/06/khan-academy-videos-and-ol... http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Khan_Academy http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Khan_Academy So we did work on some of these issues, often successfully e.g. in the case of Wikipedia. We didn't have our small US team make instructional videos, though -- that doesn't seem wise (smacks of colonialism) or sustainable (OLPC laptops went to something like 30 countries). There are plenty of things we should have done better, though. The mesh network was a failure in most locations, and the "hand crank" power didn't work, though we were able to run laptops off single solar panels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITHNbOrPQyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITHNbOrPQyM
    - VikingCoder 13y ago
      A Wikipedia snapshot is great, but it's not a textbook. It's a reference. If a community was going to get 100 laptops, I was hoping each laptop would get something like 1/100th (or 1/50th, for replication) of the videos. No "school server" necessary. But I guess that idea is dependent on the mesh network... It sucks that the mesh network and the hand crank didn't work. Did the rip-cord work? I'm glad the Khan Academy videos were getting translated, that's great. > our small US team I wish you'd figured out a way to go big. Something like enlisting the top 10 US universities for Education degrees to get all of their graduating students to each make a 30-minute educational video for OLPC as a senior project. Make it trivial to record videos on the OLPC itself, and trivial to share them with each other... Never mind me. I'm just an armchair quarterback. Thank you for working on it.
    - adricnet 13y ago
      Hey CJB! Thanks for wading into this olpcnews FUD inspired mess ;) Glad to see you, even to rehash old arguments. Cheers, adric
bippi 13y ago
I don't think he's equating the people themselves with zero, rather the benefit to them. A good example where technology has really helped in Africa are cell phones. So many stories of fishermen being able to call and ask "who needs fish?" and they're able to get to the right markets with better fish. I didn't see these as having that 'killer app' for the populace where it noticeably makes life better, immediately, for the people they're given to. Even in the sanitary-pad case above, the man said he was illiterate, IIRC. The computer wouldn't have done much there...
- billyhoffman 13y ago
  Everything people are saying here against OLPC, such as "give them food and build infrastructure first" equally applies to cell phones. But cell phones clearly are win in Africa and have really helped. Would we all criticize a one-cell-phone-per-person charitable organization? Would people like glesica rant about how a one-cell-phone-per-person charitable organization is wasting, as he said, "resources that could have been used providing more basic types of development aid that would have created something to multiply in the future" Technology is not magic, but it does help, even poor people.
netcan 13y ago
I think you are misunderstanding. If you give a laptop to a kid that is getting a good standard of education (and nutrition) at home and at school, it will probably have more of an effect than that same laptop would have on a kid with limited access to good education which is the norm among potential recipients. If a school has 50 pupils in one class, the cost of 50 laptops could instead be used to split the class in two (1 extra teacher) and provide students free breakfast for a year, even at a cost of $100 per laptop. Both of these are proven to have big effects on attendance and achievement. 25 well fed 10 year olds in a class vs 50 pekish 10 year olds is a big difference.
- billyhoffman 13y ago
  I don't misunderstand. I would never say give a laptop to someone that doesn't have food. Or spend money on technology over providing enough calories for someone to live and work. I don't think anyone at OLPC says that either. We aren't talking about failed states like the Central African Republic here. Argentina and Brazil were huge proponents and adopters of OLPC. This is not a "technology" or "food" zero sum game. But the parent comment didn't say "handing a laptop to someone who has no food and shelter is never a great idea". glesica said "handing a laptop to a poor child." Technology is a force multiplier for curiosity and ingenuity and for problem solving. "poor" people have curiosity, ingenuity, and have problems that need solving. Yes, technology isn't magic that just solves problems, but to say that poor people can't use or benefit from personal technology is just patently wrong.
mseebach 13y ago
> Those are people you are so callously and casually equating with zero, and a person's economic status has nothing to do with their value. Get over yourself. That was not even remotely what was said or implied. Being in a situation where you have near-zero utility from a computer is not "being equal to zero".

VikingCoder 13y ago

I'll presume you're not intentionally misunderstanding... glesica and I believe that the OLPC didn't do near enough to actually try to TEACH. Multiplying 0 teaching times a force-multiplying computer yields 0 teaching.

lordCarbonFiber 13y ago

>Assuming that there is avaliable internet for your internet connected laptop >Assuming there is available electricity for said laptop >Assuming there is clean water, fresh food, good shelter/lighting available so the proprieties lie in developing with said laptop. Technology is an amazing force for positive change. However, I think, as I believe so does the parent, you get more for your money if you first develop the surrounding infrastructure, then help provide the technology. No one is implying that the people living in these areas of the world are worth nothing. The implication is that the foundation around them is minimizing the potential gains via technology.

VikingCoder 13y ago
I'm about 50-50 in-between you folks. > Assuming that there is avaliable internet for your internet connected laptop You don't need internet to have a communication tool. Mesh networks can actually work pretty well. OLPC had mesh networks. And they don't need to eventually reach the internet, either. Being able to send a text message to your neighbor, even 100 yards away, could have been pretty powerful. Connect a few of those together in a mesh, and you might be able to communicate MILES away. I don't actually know if the OLPC was any good at this, but it was built out of pieces that could have enabled it. > Assuming there is available electricity for said laptop You don't need electricity for a hand-crank laptop. OLPC had hand-crank power. The fact that you bring up these factually incorrect arguments makes me think you don't actually know anything about OLPC. It's worth educating yourself, they made some interesting and good choices. They also made, in my opinion, some TERRIBLE choices. Oh, and you said "lighting." Since the OLPC was hand-crank powered, it was often the brightest light source available to the families that got them. ...and on to your next point... I think that OLPC computers COULD HAVE HAD instructional videos, like Khan Academy, in how to improve water quality, preserve food, deal with pests and diseases and infections and wounds, reproductive health, building good shelters, identifying cloud patterns. Kind of like a US Army Field Survival Guide. All tailored to the local language and culture. In that respect, it could have been like air-dropping a Peace Corps volunteer with engineering know-how, into a community. Sadly, the OLPC project didn't address those problems.
- cjbprime 13y ago
  Hi, I worked at OLPC. You might not be aware that OLPC shipped offline Wikipedia snapshots (in an appropriate language) on each laptop, or that people made Khan Academy video packs that were downloadable to a "school server" with enough disk space, or that children who received OLPC laptops helped to translate Khan Academy videos to their own language: http://blog.printf.net/articles/2013/02/01/children-in-peru-write-their-own-history-on-wikipedia/ http://blog.printf.net/articles/2013/02/01/children-in-peru-... http://blog.laptop.org/2011/06/06/khan-academy-videos-and-olpc http://blog.laptop.org/2011/06/06/khan-academy-videos-and-ol... http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Khan_Academy http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Khan_Academy So we did work on some of these issues, often successfully e.g. in the case of Wikipedia. We didn't have our small US team make instructional videos, though -- that doesn't seem wise (smacks of colonialism) or sustainable (OLPC laptops went to something like 30 countries). There are plenty of things we should have done better, though. The mesh network was a failure in most locations, and the "hand crank" power didn't work, though we were able to run laptops off single solar panels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITHNbOrPQyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITHNbOrPQyM
  - VikingCoder 13y ago
    A Wikipedia snapshot is great, but it's not a textbook. It's a reference. If a community was going to get 100 laptops, I was hoping each laptop would get something like 1/100th (or 1/50th, for replication) of the videos. No "school server" necessary. But I guess that idea is dependent on the mesh network... It sucks that the mesh network and the hand crank didn't work. Did the rip-cord work? I'm glad the Khan Academy videos were getting translated, that's great. > our small US team I wish you'd figured out a way to go big. Something like enlisting the top 10 US universities for Education degrees to get all of their graduating students to each make a 30-minute educational video for OLPC as a senior project. Make it trivial to record videos on the OLPC itself, and trivial to share them with each other... Never mind me. I'm just an armchair quarterback. Thank you for working on it.
  - adricnet 13y ago
    Hey CJB! Thanks for wading into this olpcnews FUD inspired mess ;) Glad to see you, even to rehash old arguments. Cheers, adric

bippi 13y ago

I don't think he's equating the people themselves with zero, rather the benefit to them. A good example where technology has really helped in Africa are cell phones. So many stories of fishermen being able to call and ask "who needs fish?" and they're able to get to the right markets with better fish. I didn't see these as having that 'killer app' for the populace where it noticeably makes life better, immediately, for the people they're given to. Even in the sanitary-pad case above, the man said he was illiterate, IIRC. The computer wouldn't have done much there...

billyhoffman 13y ago
Everything people are saying here against OLPC, such as "give them food and build infrastructure first" equally applies to cell phones. But cell phones clearly are win in Africa and have really helped. Would we all criticize a one-cell-phone-per-person charitable organization? Would people like glesica rant about how a one-cell-phone-per-person charitable organization is wasting, as he said, "resources that could have been used providing more basic types of development aid that would have created something to multiply in the future" Technology is not magic, but it does help, even poor people.

netcan 13y ago

I think you are misunderstanding. If you give a laptop to a kid that is getting a good standard of education (and nutrition) at home and at school, it will probably have more of an effect than that same laptop would have on a kid with limited access to good education which is the norm among potential recipients. If a school has 50 pupils in one class, the cost of 50 laptops could instead be used to split the class in two (1 extra teacher) and provide students free breakfast for a year, even at a cost of $100 per laptop. Both of these are proven to have big effects on attendance and achievement. 25 well fed 10 year olds in a class vs 50 pekish 10 year olds is a big difference.

billyhoffman 13y ago
I don't misunderstand. I would never say give a laptop to someone that doesn't have food. Or spend money on technology over providing enough calories for someone to live and work. I don't think anyone at OLPC says that either. We aren't talking about failed states like the Central African Republic here. Argentina and Brazil were huge proponents and adopters of OLPC. This is not a "technology" or "food" zero sum game. But the parent comment didn't say "handing a laptop to someone who has no food and shelter is never a great idea". glesica said "handing a laptop to a poor child." Technology is a force multiplier for curiosity and ingenuity and for problem solving. "poor" people have curiosity, ingenuity, and have problems that need solving. Yes, technology isn't magic that just solves problems, but to say that poor people can't use or benefit from personal technology is just patently wrong.

mseebach 13y ago

> Those are people you are so callously and casually equating with zero, and a person's economic status has nothing to do with their value. Get over yourself. That was not even remotely what was said or implied. Being in a situation where you have near-zero utility from a computer is not "being equal to zero".