6 ms·

"For me, the mechanics of budgeting are easy but the psychology of riding the business cycle is difficult." Running a bakery is effectively like consulting exce

"For me, the mechanics of budgeting are easy but the psychology of riding the business cycle is difficult." Running a bakery is effectively like consulting except it pays worse. Starting a Bakery isn't courageous ... it's foolhardy. Sometimes it pays to be foolhardy (lord knows I have been several times), but painting the picture that all of us who may be dissatisfied with our current mid-level careers as technologists would be successful if we just had the courage to abandon a decade and a half of training and effort to chase something new, that's disingenuous.

agentultra 13y ago
Disingenuous how? If the person's goal is to define success by their happiness why not get out of programming if they're not happy doing it? You don't need to make a tonne of money to be happy. Move somewhere cheap, keep your expenses low, and have fun running a bakery. You get to interact with more people, get involved in your community, and people can taste the results of your work.
- perigrin 13y ago
  Actually there have been studies that have shown that while more money doesn't provide happiness, enough money is a pre-requisite. We're not talking a ton, we're talking enough to pay for food, shelter, and some basic form of entertainment. It's incredibly easy to say "move somewhere cheap, keep your expenses low, and have fun" from the outside. I have been perfectly willing to move for a job. I've changed continents, and failing that moved literally across country (vertically mind you) for another. We even moved when we had a house with a mortgage and rented out the house (at a loss) because the housing market sucked in 2008. Moving that much took a huge toll on my family. We basically decided to stop when my second kid entered school, and my wife opened her retail business. Which is to say, it ain't that simple. Have you started a retail business? I've watched first hand what it takes. My wife works easily 50% harder than I do, for 50% of what I make on a good day. She has finally gotten to the point where she has three part time employees so she can take one day a week off. She cannot simply 1099 contractors, so she has to worry about witholding, workman's compensation, and employee benefits. She has to deal with upstream suppliers, constantly finding new customers, driving business into her shop as well as subsidizing it with external events. She'd be the first to tell you that without my salary backing up the family ... she would have had to shut her doors several times. In our industry we lose site of the actual cost to run a mom-and-pop business because we can throw up a website for $20/mo and a long-weekend of work. (Isn't that what the basic premise of the Lean Startup is? Throw something economically cheap together to test the idea and bootstrap sales?) My wife's business has kept expenses low. She buys all her equipment second hand off craigslist (she's a potter not a baker so thankfully a lot of failed hobbyists make the supply on craigslist reasonable). I'd estimate her expenses before payroll are close to $2k-$3k/month for consumables and rent. Most months she breaks even after payroll, and doesn't pay herself an actual salary. If this description sounds remotely appealing, then by all means stop what you're doing and go that. Programming really is that hateful. However painting it with the rose-tinted glasses of "You get to interact with more people, get involved in your community, and people can taste the results of your work." belies the actual hard work that building a business is. It elides the fact that there will be nights you will lie awake wondering if you'll make enough sales to pay last month's rent ... let alone this month's rent. For some people that is still better than what they were doing before, but pretending that all you need is a little more gumption ... I don't know a better word for it than 'disingenuous'.
  - agentultra 13y ago
    I see what you mean. It is glib to say that opening a brick-and-mortar business is a walk in the park. However I supposed that if one is interested in such a venture then they would already know that it's not easy. Heck, starting a software business and decided to grow to your first hires and worrying about making payroll is just as taxing. What I meant was that for a disenfranchised programmer perhaps they do need to get out of programming for a while. And if you're thinking of taking a pay-cut to trade for some happiness then one suggestion is moving somewhere cheap. I'm not a guru... it's just the best thing I could think of. I could afford a 650k house in the city or I could afford a 200k one on a commuter line in a less-desirable city. Seems to me that if I needed to take a pay-cut then I'd be better prepared if my costs of living were lower than if I had locked myself into the expensive city house. But maybe not?
    - chromatic 13y ago
      Seems to me that if I needed to take a pay-cut then I'd be better prepared if my costs of living were lower than if I had locked myself into the expensive city house. "Just pack up and move somewhere cheaper" is easy advice to give, but it doesn't apply to every situation. Not everyone has that luxury. By the time you reach the mid-point of your career, you may have one or more of a partner, a partner with a professional career, personal obligations in your area, a mortgage, a mortgage you can't get out of without losing a lot of money/credit rating, aging parents, children, ailing family members who live with you, medical conditions which limit where you can live, ex partner with children not willing to move, et cetera. Alternately you may already live very frugally. When I was fresh out of college, I couldn't have imagined any of those circumstances applying to me or anyone I know. Now I've seen them happen to many of my peers and colleagues.
      - agentultra 13y ago
        First, big fan of your work. :) Second, given the right set of circumstances you could find something wrong with any given suggestion. I wasn't trying to be flippant. Life is complex and I am struggling to find answers to many of the same questions as you. Best of luck. Update: also should apologize if my suggestion was in poor taste. I realize it's not the kind if advice that works for everyone.
- saraid216 13y ago
  > If the person's goal is to define success by their happiness why not get out of programming if they're not happy doing it? This is making an inverse error. If your current job isn't making you happy, there isn't actually anything that guarantees leaving it will make you happy.
- rwallace 13y ago
  If you need to take a break from programming, then take a break, but blowing your life savings on a bakery is not a good way to spend your break time. There are far cheaper ways to have fun and interact with people.
ilikerashers 13y ago
It's not really that foolhardy if there's always a career in CRUD. If it blows up or you decide it's not for you, there's always an option to pick up a contract or go back on salary. You don't really lose if you keep the downside to a minimum and you will gain from experience.
- perigrin 13y ago
  "there's always an option to pick up a contract or go back on salary" What do you tell the interviewer who says: "uh, yeah but your experience is all 1-5 years old. Why haven't you committed to github this week?" We're just arm-chair quarterbacking chromatic's life with our own experiences informing what play is "obviously" the right idea. I know from personal experience that he's a incredibly insightful intelligent person. I suspect that he has weighed all of these options and hopefully he'll find the best solution for his own life.

agentultra 13y ago

Disingenuous how? If the person's goal is to define success by their happiness why not get out of programming if they're not happy doing it? You don't need to make a tonne of money to be happy. Move somewhere cheap, keep your expenses low, and have fun running a bakery. You get to interact with more people, get involved in your community, and people can taste the results of your work.

perigrin 13y ago
Actually there have been studies that have shown that while more money doesn't provide happiness, enough money is a pre-requisite. We're not talking a ton, we're talking enough to pay for food, shelter, and some basic form of entertainment. It's incredibly easy to say "move somewhere cheap, keep your expenses low, and have fun" from the outside. I have been perfectly willing to move for a job. I've changed continents, and failing that moved literally across country (vertically mind you) for another. We even moved when we had a house with a mortgage and rented out the house (at a loss) because the housing market sucked in 2008. Moving that much took a huge toll on my family. We basically decided to stop when my second kid entered school, and my wife opened her retail business. Which is to say, it ain't that simple. Have you started a retail business? I've watched first hand what it takes. My wife works easily 50% harder than I do, for 50% of what I make on a good day. She has finally gotten to the point where she has three part time employees so she can take one day a week off. She cannot simply 1099 contractors, so she has to worry about witholding, workman's compensation, and employee benefits. She has to deal with upstream suppliers, constantly finding new customers, driving business into her shop as well as subsidizing it with external events. She'd be the first to tell you that without my salary backing up the family ... she would have had to shut her doors several times. In our industry we lose site of the actual cost to run a mom-and-pop business because we can throw up a website for $20/mo and a long-weekend of work. (Isn't that what the basic premise of the Lean Startup is? Throw something economically cheap together to test the idea and bootstrap sales?) My wife's business has kept expenses low. She buys all her equipment second hand off craigslist (she's a potter not a baker so thankfully a lot of failed hobbyists make the supply on craigslist reasonable). I'd estimate her expenses before payroll are close to $2k-$3k/month for consumables and rent. Most months she breaks even after payroll, and doesn't pay herself an actual salary. If this description sounds remotely appealing, then by all means stop what you're doing and go that. Programming really is that hateful. However painting it with the rose-tinted glasses of "You get to interact with more people, get involved in your community, and people can taste the results of your work." belies the actual hard work that building a business is. It elides the fact that there will be nights you will lie awake wondering if you'll make enough sales to pay last month's rent ... let alone this month's rent. For some people that is still better than what they were doing before, but pretending that all you need is a little more gumption ... I don't know a better word for it than 'disingenuous'.
- agentultra 13y ago
  I see what you mean. It is glib to say that opening a brick-and-mortar business is a walk in the park. However I supposed that if one is interested in such a venture then they would already know that it's not easy. Heck, starting a software business and decided to grow to your first hires and worrying about making payroll is just as taxing. What I meant was that for a disenfranchised programmer perhaps they do need to get out of programming for a while. And if you're thinking of taking a pay-cut to trade for some happiness then one suggestion is moving somewhere cheap. I'm not a guru... it's just the best thing I could think of. I could afford a 650k house in the city or I could afford a 200k one on a commuter line in a less-desirable city. Seems to me that if I needed to take a pay-cut then I'd be better prepared if my costs of living were lower than if I had locked myself into the expensive city house. But maybe not?
  - chromatic 13y ago
    Seems to me that if I needed to take a pay-cut then I'd be better prepared if my costs of living were lower than if I had locked myself into the expensive city house. "Just pack up and move somewhere cheaper" is easy advice to give, but it doesn't apply to every situation. Not everyone has that luxury. By the time you reach the mid-point of your career, you may have one or more of a partner, a partner with a professional career, personal obligations in your area, a mortgage, a mortgage you can't get out of without losing a lot of money/credit rating, aging parents, children, ailing family members who live with you, medical conditions which limit where you can live, ex partner with children not willing to move, et cetera. Alternately you may already live very frugally. When I was fresh out of college, I couldn't have imagined any of those circumstances applying to me or anyone I know. Now I've seen them happen to many of my peers and colleagues.
    - agentultra 13y ago
      First, big fan of your work. :) Second, given the right set of circumstances you could find something wrong with any given suggestion. I wasn't trying to be flippant. Life is complex and I am struggling to find answers to many of the same questions as you. Best of luck. Update: also should apologize if my suggestion was in poor taste. I realize it's not the kind if advice that works for everyone.
saraid216 13y ago
> If the person's goal is to define success by their happiness why not get out of programming if they're not happy doing it? This is making an inverse error. If your current job isn't making you happy, there isn't actually anything that guarantees leaving it will make you happy.
rwallace 13y ago
If you need to take a break from programming, then take a break, but blowing your life savings on a bakery is not a good way to spend your break time. There are far cheaper ways to have fun and interact with people.

ilikerashers 13y ago

It's not really that foolhardy if there's always a career in CRUD. If it blows up or you decide it's not for you, there's always an option to pick up a contract or go back on salary. You don't really lose if you keep the downside to a minimum and you will gain from experience.

perigrin 13y ago
"there's always an option to pick up a contract or go back on salary" What do you tell the interviewer who says: "uh, yeah but your experience is all 1-5 years old. Why haven't you committed to github this week?" We're just arm-chair quarterbacking chromatic's life with our own experiences informing what play is "obviously" the right idea. I know from personal experience that he's a incredibly insightful intelligent person. I suspect that he has weighed all of these options and hopefully he'll find the best solution for his own life.