5 ms·

To highlight one thing: "Fifteen or fourteen or even ten years ago, I might have railed against the inherent unfairness of a cruel and uncaring universe of tec

by cwyers 13y ago

To highlight one thing: "Fifteen or fourteen or even ten years ago, I might have railed against the inherent unfairness of a cruel and uncaring universe of technology driven by fashion, where technical superiority is less important than buzz, but I've tried these approaches over my career." The universe, from the perspective of a Perl programmer, is certainly cruel and uncaring. I just don't think it's driven by fashion near to the extent this statement implies (or the pithy TLDRs up top imply, for that matter). The biggest wounds to Perl were probably self-inflicted, but the languages that grew to replace Perl did so by and large because they were doing a better job of solving problems some people had than Perl was, not because the people who were using them wanted to be fadish. There certainly are people who chase programming fads, but they're trailing, not leading, indicators of a language growing.

gtirloni 13y ago
It's debatable how much improvement theses language are providing. You see people reinventing the wheel over and over, "discovering" "new" things all the time, thinking of new ways of doing things that will make a 0.0001% difference.. all attached to a "revolution" tag. Lately I've decided to consider IT as a fashion world. My major anxiety is how to clearly see what's "core" and what "fad" and focus properly (and hope I'll be employable by my 50's).
- eru 13y ago
  > My major anxiety is how to clearly see what's "core" and what "fad" and focus properly (and hope I'll be employable by my 50's). As always, the classics. If nothing else, knowing how to write a compiler (especially including parsers) will keep you employed. Not because you need to write compilers all the time, but the techniques are useful and timeless. Unix will probably stick around, too. And I'd be willing to bet on strongly typed functional programming (but I might be biased there).
copergi 13y ago
As someone who strongly dislikes perl (I'm being generous there really), I really don't think python or ruby do a better job at all. Python's selling point seems to just be "the syntax is different", and I honestly can't tell how ruby is supposed to be better than perl at all. It is barely even different.
- cwyers 13y ago
  Well, apply the process of elimination. One of two things is true: 1) Nearly everybody but you is an idiot, and the rise of Python and Ruby to take over several problem domain formerly dominated by Perl (and having better penetration than Perl in problem domains where other languages, like PHP, are more dominant) is entirely capricious and due to whimsy. 2) You're not understanding something as well as everybody else, most probably the particular problem all those people using Python/Ruby instead of a Perl as their language. What's more probable, do you think?
  - copergi 13y ago
    There are far more possible explanations than the false dichotomy you provide. If you think your suggestion #2 is most likely, then why not help me understand rather than making a completely unproductive, condescending response that provides no insight or value?
  - qdog 13y ago
    I don't see too much different in Ruby, either. I haven't really been exposed to Python, so I don't really know why people use it so much. Most people I have encountered who have chosen a language have done it in a seemingly arbitrary fashion, so no, I don't believe either of your statements. I used to not like Perl because of having to touch other people's "ascii puke", but I've gotten past that and still think of it as the best language for manipulating text that I've used. YMMV
  - wwweston 13y ago
    Did I just read a "because it's popular, it's better" argument? Combined with a strawman ("the poster is arguing everyone but himself and other people who think Perl ~ Ruby/Python is an idiot")? People don't need to be particularly stupid to be driven by trends that aren't entirely founded on reason. And preferences can be both subjective and valid. I don't have a dog in this particular fight (while I worked in Perl for at least five years, I stopped over 10 years ago and moved on), but I think it's pretty much a reasonable claim that Ruby and Python and Perl (and maybe even PHP) are all more or less in the same class in terms of capability. Python and Ruby may have some gains at certain margins (perhaps Python in particular with the focus on clarity in both the language and community), loses in others.
CJefferson 13y ago
For me one thing killed Perl, Perl 6. At the time when I decided to learn one of Perl, Python and Ruby as a basic text manipulating scripting language, all discussion of Perl revolved around how Perl 6 was not at all backwards compatable, not usable at the moment, and would replace Perl 5. Given that impression, learning Perl 5 looked like the height of stupidity.
- RyanZAG 13y ago
  Interestingly, this is the same thing that is currently killing Python. The lack of migration towards Python3 is causing major problems.
  - Pacabel 13y ago
    There's a huge difference between Perl 6 and Python 3. And Python 3 surely is not "killing Python" or "causing major problems". In hindsight, I think it's been very good that Python 3 hasn't been about drastic, immediate change. It has been a very controlled transition that has allowed existing users to remain undisturbed, while simultaneously allowing the language to evolve. Those who don't need Python 3's benefits today are perfectly able to continue using Python 2.7. Nobody is forced into upgrading, yet Python 2 still remains very well supported. Those who want or need what Python 3 offers can upgrade when they see fit. We've seen the major libraries and frameworks support Python 3 over time, as demand for this support has grown. It now has a very robust community building around it. Unlike Perl 6, we've actually been able to seriously use Python 3 for a long time now. While it's clear now that Python 3 is the future, Python 2 users haven't been abandoned, either. Everyone has remained as good as they were before, if not better off.
- Pacabel 13y ago
  This is a very real phenomenon. A somewhat related one is the effect that the Perl 6 disaster has had on the reputation of the Perl community as a whole, even if Perl 5 is a very different language embraced by a different segment of the community. Unfortunately, the term "Perl" has become synonymous with terms like "failure", "incompetence" and "wheel-spinning" for a lot of people. This isn't the kind of reputation that proves useful when trying to advocate for the use of Perl 5 in new projects, for example. One will end up spending more time trying to explain that Perl 5 is pretty unrelated to Perl 6 and that its development has continued, rather than spending time explaining how it'll be beneficial to use it.

by cwyers 13y ago

gtirloni 13y ago

It's debatable how much improvement theses language are providing. You see people reinventing the wheel over and over, "discovering" "new" things all the time, thinking of new ways of doing things that will make a 0.0001% difference.. all attached to a "revolution" tag. Lately I've decided to consider IT as a fashion world. My major anxiety is how to clearly see what's "core" and what "fad" and focus properly (and hope I'll be employable by my 50's).

eru 13y ago
> My major anxiety is how to clearly see what's "core" and what "fad" and focus properly (and hope I'll be employable by my 50's). As always, the classics. If nothing else, knowing how to write a compiler (especially including parsers) will keep you employed. Not because you need to write compilers all the time, but the techniques are useful and timeless. Unix will probably stick around, too. And I'd be willing to bet on strongly typed functional programming (but I might be biased there).

copergi 13y ago

As someone who strongly dislikes perl (I'm being generous there really), I really don't think python or ruby do a better job at all. Python's selling point seems to just be "the syntax is different", and I honestly can't tell how ruby is supposed to be better than perl at all. It is barely even different.

cwyers 13y ago
Well, apply the process of elimination. One of two things is true: 1) Nearly everybody but you is an idiot, and the rise of Python and Ruby to take over several problem domain formerly dominated by Perl (and having better penetration than Perl in problem domains where other languages, like PHP, are more dominant) is entirely capricious and due to whimsy. 2) You're not understanding something as well as everybody else, most probably the particular problem all those people using Python/Ruby instead of a Perl as their language. What's more probable, do you think?
- copergi 13y ago
  There are far more possible explanations than the false dichotomy you provide. If you think your suggestion #2 is most likely, then why not help me understand rather than making a completely unproductive, condescending response that provides no insight or value?
- qdog 13y ago
  I don't see too much different in Ruby, either. I haven't really been exposed to Python, so I don't really know why people use it so much. Most people I have encountered who have chosen a language have done it in a seemingly arbitrary fashion, so no, I don't believe either of your statements. I used to not like Perl because of having to touch other people's "ascii puke", but I've gotten past that and still think of it as the best language for manipulating text that I've used. YMMV
- wwweston 13y ago
  Did I just read a "because it's popular, it's better" argument? Combined with a strawman ("the poster is arguing everyone but himself and other people who think Perl ~ Ruby/Python is an idiot")? People don't need to be particularly stupid to be driven by trends that aren't entirely founded on reason. And preferences can be both subjective and valid. I don't have a dog in this particular fight (while I worked in Perl for at least five years, I stopped over 10 years ago and moved on), but I think it's pretty much a reasonable claim that Ruby and Python and Perl (and maybe even PHP) are all more or less in the same class in terms of capability. Python and Ruby may have some gains at certain margins (perhaps Python in particular with the focus on clarity in both the language and community), loses in others.

CJefferson 13y ago

For me one thing killed Perl, Perl 6. At the time when I decided to learn one of Perl, Python and Ruby as a basic text manipulating scripting language, all discussion of Perl revolved around how Perl 6 was not at all backwards compatable, not usable at the moment, and would replace Perl 5. Given that impression, learning Perl 5 looked like the height of stupidity.

RyanZAG 13y ago
Interestingly, this is the same thing that is currently killing Python. The lack of migration towards Python3 is causing major problems.
- Pacabel 13y ago
  There's a huge difference between Perl 6 and Python 3. And Python 3 surely is not "killing Python" or "causing major problems". In hindsight, I think it's been very good that Python 3 hasn't been about drastic, immediate change. It has been a very controlled transition that has allowed existing users to remain undisturbed, while simultaneously allowing the language to evolve. Those who don't need Python 3's benefits today are perfectly able to continue using Python 2.7. Nobody is forced into upgrading, yet Python 2 still remains very well supported. Those who want or need what Python 3 offers can upgrade when they see fit. We've seen the major libraries and frameworks support Python 3 over time, as demand for this support has grown. It now has a very robust community building around it. Unlike Perl 6, we've actually been able to seriously use Python 3 for a long time now. While it's clear now that Python 3 is the future, Python 2 users haven't been abandoned, either. Everyone has remained as good as they were before, if not better off.
Pacabel 13y ago
This is a very real phenomenon. A somewhat related one is the effect that the Perl 6 disaster has had on the reputation of the Perl community as a whole, even if Perl 5 is a very different language embraced by a different segment of the community. Unfortunately, the term "Perl" has become synonymous with terms like "failure", "incompetence" and "wheel-spinning" for a lot of people. This isn't the kind of reputation that proves useful when trying to advocate for the use of Perl 5 in new projects, for example. One will end up spending more time trying to explain that Perl 5 is pretty unrelated to Perl 6 and that its development has continued, rather than spending time explaining how it'll be beneficial to use it.