3 ms·

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hi

by Tohhou 13y ago

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their experience, are less likely to learn new things on their own like younger people are, are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. You see people obsessing over youth. They are not. They are valuing risk takers, people who know modern tech, people who don't expect to be paid so much just because they know more less useful to the current situation skills and knowledge. The quality of a low age itself is irrelevant. It will be the same 15 years from now. Current younger people will feel more entitled to higher pay, will feel less willing to compromise or settle for jobs which their younger peers would be happy to get. Ultimately if someone brings value to a job it's the stupidity of the employer to not understand their value. If a company can make 10x more from hiring someone why wouldn't they? Companies which don't hire the best value makers don't do as well, which allows those companies which do hire those people to float to the top. It is the same thing with women. Any sane businessperson would hire people no matter their gender if those people can make them more money, and anyone who is leaving value on the table by being discriminatory despite the lost potential leaves room for their competitors to destroy them. If you think older people can make you more money ultimately then you hire them and rule the tech world.

mikaraento 13y ago
Although I roughly agree with the sentiment ('if you think everybody else is leaving money at the table, you should be picking it up rather than complaining about it') - there is evidence to the contrary. A large part of the post-WWII economic growth of the Soviet Union has been attributed to the integration of women into the labour force - and the final stagnation to the fact that at that point there were no more women to integrate, everybody was already working.
techmatters 13y ago
> I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their experience, Myth : The highest paid are in the 30-40 age bracket. See http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf (UK-focussed, but the US is probably similar) > are less likely to learn new things on their own like younger people are, ...but they already know so much more that learning is less important. They know it already! > are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. Myth : http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/education-and-tech-entrepreneurship http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/educatio...
- Tohhou 13y ago
  >Myth : The highest paid are in the 30-40 age bracket. I'm not saying people are not paid money I'm saying older people will expect higher salaries based on their experience compared to younger people despite the direct value they can contribute to a company. Value = money. >...but they already know so much more that learning is less important. They know it already! Yes, they know so much... of things no one uses anymore, of outdated practices, and not what is making money right now. Technology changes fast and what is useful to know now won't be in 15 years. >Myth : http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-o/research/2009/04/educatio.. http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-o/research/2009/04/educatio..... Great, so why are older people discriminating against other older people?
  - doktrin 13y ago
    > Technology changes fast and what is useful to know now won't be in 15 years. This claim is bandied about way too carelessly. Application level tools do change quite fast. The fundamentals of technology do not. Knowledge of networking, TCP/IP, x86 assembly, stack discipline, cache implementations, etc. is comparatively timeless. For instance, one of CMU's core CS/ECE classes (213) has been taught in roughly the same manner for the last 15 years. The same I believe holds true for 6.001 at MIT. You can argue that COBOL is no longer relevant. What you can't claim is that only the framework-du-jour is important to modern business. It's simply not the case.
doktrin 13y ago
> Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field? > [older people] are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. Even if true, this is irrelevant. Age discrimination in this context applies to employee hiring. > They are valuing risk takers Is "risk taking" a criteria your company applies when looking for talent? None of the startups I've worked with have ever sorted engineering candidates by "risk taking". > It is the same thing with women. Any sane businessperson would hire people no matter their gender if those people can make them more money, and anyone who is leaving value on the table by being discriminatory despite the lost potential leaves room for their competitors to destroy them. The crux of your argument is that the market will punish bad behavior. I think this sounds convincing. However, it is a flawed argument. For one thing, the market can't reward new approaches if no-one tries them. 50 years ago you could probably have made the argument that outright discrimination against women and minorities was rewarded by the market. After all, all companies observed similar hiring practices - including the market leaders. Taking a snapshot of current practices, and claiming they are some sort of epitome "because free market!" is simply a logical fallacy.
- Tohhou 13y ago
  >Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field? The people who claim that women are discriminated against purely based on gender. If women really are being discriminated based on gender, and companies are hiring less qualified men in favor of more qualified women, then someone should be able to hire up all of the women who are being snubbed by all of the sexist companies and have a competitive advantage over them, right? Same situation with older people, right? Unless of course if this isn't about age or sex. I'm female and not getting any younger by the way. But I still don't buy the bull others try to sell. >Age discrimination in this context applies to employee hiring. Are older people better employees or worse? Are they hiring based on age or the other things and age is only an easy thing to blame? >Is "risk taking" a criteria your company applies when looking for talent? No startup is a sure thing. Younger people are less risk averse. It's not that a company wants people who will take risks it's that older people want more of a sure thing. They walk in and expect a salary which matches their years of experience, while most places hiring have no use for their experience. Their experience would add no value to their business, and so hiring a younger person who does not demand such a high salary is a better option. >For one thing, the market can't reward new approaches if no-one tries them. There is no law keeping the people clamoring about ageism from do that. No one can force others to nor should they be able to. Clearly if they believe that hiring older people is such a good move they should be able to make a lot of money. I'm unaware of laws which make it harder or impossible for older people to get hired?
pessimizer 13y ago
>If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. This is a religious belief, and should be treated as such.
- Tohhou 13y ago
  Competitive advantage isn't a real thing? You can hire anyone no matter what and be just as successful for sure?

by Tohhou 13y ago

mikaraento 13y ago

Although I roughly agree with the sentiment ('if you think everybody else is leaving money at the table, you should be picking it up rather than complaining about it') - there is evidence to the contrary. A large part of the post-WWII economic growth of the Soviet Union has been attributed to the integration of women into the labour force - and the final stagnation to the fact that at that point there were no more women to integrate, everybody was already working.

techmatters 13y ago

> I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their experience, Myth : The highest paid are in the 30-40 age bracket. See http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf (UK-focussed, but the US is probably similar) > are less likely to learn new things on their own like younger people are, ...but they already know so much more that learning is less important. They know it already! > are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. Myth : http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/education-and-tech-entrepreneurship http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/educatio...

Tohhou 13y ago
>Myth : The highest paid are in the 30-40 age bracket. I'm not saying people are not paid money I'm saying older people will expect higher salaries based on their experience compared to younger people despite the direct value they can contribute to a company. Value = money. >...but they already know so much more that learning is less important. They know it already! Yes, they know so much... of things no one uses anymore, of outdated practices, and not what is making money right now. Technology changes fast and what is useful to know now won't be in 15 years. >Myth : http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-o/research/2009/04/educatio.. http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-o/research/2009/04/educatio..... Great, so why are older people discriminating against other older people?
- doktrin 13y ago
  > Technology changes fast and what is useful to know now won't be in 15 years. This claim is bandied about way too carelessly. Application level tools do change quite fast. The fundamentals of technology do not. Knowledge of networking, TCP/IP, x86 assembly, stack discipline, cache implementations, etc. is comparatively timeless. For instance, one of CMU's core CS/ECE classes (213) has been taught in roughly the same manner for the last 15 years. The same I believe holds true for 6.001 at MIT. You can argue that COBOL is no longer relevant. What you can't claim is that only the framework-du-jour is important to modern business. It's simply not the case.

doktrin 13y ago

> Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field? > [older people] are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. Even if true, this is irrelevant. Age discrimination in this context applies to employee hiring. > They are valuing risk takers Is "risk taking" a criteria your company applies when looking for talent? None of the startups I've worked with have ever sorted engineering candidates by "risk taking". > It is the same thing with women. Any sane businessperson would hire people no matter their gender if those people can make them more money, and anyone who is leaving value on the table by being discriminatory despite the lost potential leaves room for their competitors to destroy them. The crux of your argument is that the market will punish bad behavior. I think this sounds convincing. However, it is a flawed argument. For one thing, the market can't reward new approaches if no-one tries them. 50 years ago you could probably have made the argument that outright discrimination against women and minorities was rewarded by the market. After all, all companies observed similar hiring practices - including the market leaders. Taking a snapshot of current practices, and claiming they are some sort of epitome "because free market!" is simply a logical fallacy.

Tohhou 13y ago
>Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field? The people who claim that women are discriminated against purely based on gender. If women really are being discriminated based on gender, and companies are hiring less qualified men in favor of more qualified women, then someone should be able to hire up all of the women who are being snubbed by all of the sexist companies and have a competitive advantage over them, right? Same situation with older people, right? Unless of course if this isn't about age or sex. I'm female and not getting any younger by the way. But I still don't buy the bull others try to sell. >Age discrimination in this context applies to employee hiring. Are older people better employees or worse? Are they hiring based on age or the other things and age is only an easy thing to blame? >Is "risk taking" a criteria your company applies when looking for talent? No startup is a sure thing. Younger people are less risk averse. It's not that a company wants people who will take risks it's that older people want more of a sure thing. They walk in and expect a salary which matches their years of experience, while most places hiring have no use for their experience. Their experience would add no value to their business, and so hiring a younger person who does not demand such a high salary is a better option. >For one thing, the market can't reward new approaches if no-one tries them. There is no law keeping the people clamoring about ageism from do that. No one can force others to nor should they be able to. Clearly if they believe that hiring older people is such a good move they should be able to make a lot of money. I'm unaware of laws which make it harder or impossible for older people to get hired?

pessimizer 13y ago

>If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. This is a religious belief, and should be treated as such.

Tohhou 13y ago
Competitive advantage isn't a real thing? You can hire anyone no matter what and be just as successful for sure?