6 ms·

I wonder if we as an industry will continue to practice almost blatant age discrimination as the current generation of engineers grows older. If we continue to

by doktrin 13y ago

I wonder if we as an industry will continue to practice almost blatant age discrimination as the current generation of engineers grows older. If we continue to obsess over youth, the job market will be remarkably unpleasant 15 years from now.

mattgreenrocks 13y ago
Perhaps this is why tech companies have so little ambition: a constant stream of new blood ensures some things change (yak shaving), but never anything substantial that requires extensive experience. Instead, everyone just props up the technological status quo for their CRUD website.
- wes-exp 13y ago
  Some of the most fascinating and, frankly, lucid technology discussions I have had were with highly experienced (dare I say, older) engineers who actually know a thing or two. I find it completely scandalous that, in addition to these guys getting punished in the hiring process, the industry does not really seem to learn from them. Software engineering seems like a field that does not tend to advance in any real sense, except at a snail's pace. Most of the programmers I know (who are mostly young) are merely trying to reach a level of understanding that allows them to participate in the status quo, let alone challenge it. By the time they have sufficient experience to drive meaningful change, I suppose they will be old by industry standards, pushed out, and the cycle repeats.
  - mattgreenrocks 13y ago
    Programming really is a pop culture.
- tempodox 13y ago
  That's why every new non-CRUD idea requires a new startup and starry-eyed investors.
  - mattgreenrocks 13y ago
    Worse, non-CRUD ideas are 'risky.' And we can't have that, it's too scary!
Tohhou 13y ago
Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their experience, are less likely to learn new things on their own like younger people are, are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. You see people obsessing over youth. They are not. They are valuing risk takers, people who know modern tech, people who don't expect to be paid so much just because they know more less useful to the current situation skills and knowledge. The quality of a low age itself is irrelevant. It will be the same 15 years from now. Current younger people will feel more entitled to higher pay, will feel less willing to compromise or settle for jobs which their younger peers would be happy to get. Ultimately if someone brings value to a job it's the stupidity of the employer to not understand their value. If a company can make 10x more from hiring someone why wouldn't they? Companies which don't hire the best value makers don't do as well, which allows those companies which do hire those people to float to the top. It is the same thing with women. Any sane businessperson would hire people no matter their gender if those people can make them more money, and anyone who is leaving value on the table by being discriminatory despite the lost potential leaves room for their competitors to destroy them. If you think older people can make you more money ultimately then you hire them and rule the tech world.
- mikaraento 13y ago
  Although I roughly agree with the sentiment ('if you think everybody else is leaving money at the table, you should be picking it up rather than complaining about it') - there is evidence to the contrary. A large part of the post-WWII economic growth of the Soviet Union has been attributed to the integration of women into the labour force - and the final stagnation to the fact that at that point there were no more women to integrate, everybody was already working.
- techmatters 13y ago
  > I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their experience, Myth : The highest paid are in the 30-40 age bracket. See http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf (UK-focussed, but the US is probably similar) > are less likely to learn new things on their own like younger people are, ...but they already know so much more that learning is less important. They know it already! > are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. Myth : http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/education-and-tech-entrepreneurship http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/educatio...
imjk 13y ago
My guess is that as "our" generation ages, age discrimination will subside greatly. There are a few factors I think currently contributing to the the current age discrimination practices that are unique. First is that the consumer web is relatively young and that our generation was the first to adopt it on a mass scale. And second, the most prominent and visible tech success stories of the past decade have revolved around social media, in which the most innovative products were heavily driven by younger demographics. This is still true; the more "innovative" social media products, or most widely adopted (ie Instagram, Snapchat, etc) are still heavily driven by younger demographic users. In these cases, it was important to have employees get the product, which seemed to be most adopted early by "our" young generation. I think as we move past the social media dominant consumer web, we'll see less of this age discrimination.
- waterlesscloud 13y ago
  Consumer web is 20 years old. Those engineers in their late 40s / early 50s invented the thing.
  - sizzle 13y ago
    but do they understand the culture of the generation below them well enough to successfully capture market share? I'd argue that most older people are clueless to the rapidly changing millennial culture.
    - baldeagle 13y ago
      If: A) technology is accelerating B) the bar for status quo keeps lowering through enabling technologies C) only people that grew up in the new 'system' will be fluid at it Then: A) most of the new ideas will come from a newer and newer cohort B) age-ism will become even more prevalent
      - sizzle 13y ago
        Do you see phenomenon A and B occurring today?

by doktrin 13y ago

mattgreenrocks 13y ago

Perhaps this is why tech companies have so little ambition: a constant stream of new blood ensures some things change (yak shaving), but never anything substantial that requires extensive experience. Instead, everyone just props up the technological status quo for their CRUD website.

wes-exp 13y ago
Some of the most fascinating and, frankly, lucid technology discussions I have had were with highly experienced (dare I say, older) engineers who actually know a thing or two. I find it completely scandalous that, in addition to these guys getting punished in the hiring process, the industry does not really seem to learn from them. Software engineering seems like a field that does not tend to advance in any real sense, except at a snail's pace. Most of the programmers I know (who are mostly young) are merely trying to reach a level of understanding that allows them to participate in the status quo, let alone challenge it. By the time they have sufficient experience to drive meaningful change, I suppose they will be old by industry standards, pushed out, and the cycle repeats.
- mattgreenrocks 13y ago
  Programming really is a pop culture.
tempodox 13y ago
That's why every new non-CRUD idea requires a new startup and starry-eyed investors.
- mattgreenrocks 13y ago
  Worse, non-CRUD ideas are 'risky.' And we can't have that, it's too scary!

Tohhou 13y ago

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their experience, are less likely to learn new things on their own like younger people are, are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. You see people obsessing over youth. They are not. They are valuing risk takers, people who know modern tech, people who don't expect to be paid so much just because they know more less useful to the current situation skills and knowledge. The quality of a low age itself is irrelevant. It will be the same 15 years from now. Current younger people will feel more entitled to higher pay, will feel less willing to compromise or settle for jobs which their younger peers would be happy to get. Ultimately if someone brings value to a job it's the stupidity of the employer to not understand their value. If a company can make 10x more from hiring someone why wouldn't they? Companies which don't hire the best value makers don't do as well, which allows those companies which do hire those people to float to the top. It is the same thing with women. Any sane businessperson would hire people no matter their gender if those people can make them more money, and anyone who is leaving value on the table by being discriminatory despite the lost potential leaves room for their competitors to destroy them. If you think older people can make you more money ultimately then you hire them and rule the tech world.

mikaraento 13y ago
Although I roughly agree with the sentiment ('if you think everybody else is leaving money at the table, you should be picking it up rather than complaining about it') - there is evidence to the contrary. A large part of the post-WWII economic growth of the Soviet Union has been attributed to the integration of women into the labour force - and the final stagnation to the fact that at that point there were no more women to integrate, everybody was already working.
techmatters 13y ago
> I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their experience, Myth : The highest paid are in the 30-40 age bracket. See http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_241497.pdf (UK-focussed, but the US is probably similar) > are less likely to learn new things on their own like younger people are, ...but they already know so much more that learning is less important. They know it already! > are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are because doing so is risky. Myth : http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/education-and-tech-entrepreneurship http://www.kauffman.org/what-we-do/research/2009/04/educatio...

imjk 13y ago

My guess is that as "our" generation ages, age discrimination will subside greatly. There are a few factors I think currently contributing to the the current age discrimination practices that are unique. First is that the consumer web is relatively young and that our generation was the first to adopt it on a mass scale. And second, the most prominent and visible tech success stories of the past decade have revolved around social media, in which the most innovative products were heavily driven by younger demographics. This is still true; the more "innovative" social media products, or most widely adopted (ie Instagram, Snapchat, etc) are still heavily driven by younger demographic users. In these cases, it was important to have employees get the product, which seemed to be most adopted early by "our" young generation. I think as we move past the social media dominant consumer web, we'll see less of this age discrimination.

waterlesscloud 13y ago
Consumer web is 20 years old. Those engineers in their late 40s / early 50s invented the thing.
- sizzle 13y ago
  but do they understand the culture of the generation below them well enough to successfully capture market share? I'd argue that most older people are clueless to the rapidly changing millennial culture.
  - baldeagle 13y ago
    If: A) technology is accelerating B) the bar for status quo keeps lowering through enabling technologies C) only people that grew up in the new 'system' will be fluid at it Then: A) most of the new ideas will come from a newer and newer cohort B) age-ism will become even more prevalent
    - sizzle 13y ago
      Do you see phenomenon A and B occurring today?