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I think it's more like War Machinery Porn Week, really. Never really felt fully comfortable about this stuff myself. But for whatever burred tooth in the cogs o

by to3m 13y ago

I think it's more like War Machinery Porn Week, really. Never really felt fully comfortable about this stuff myself. But for whatever burred tooth in the cogs of fate got us here, we'd be reading of (and marvelling at) the derring-do of people history has taught us to despise. Nevertheless, here we are. And here, most importantly, at least from my perspective, I am. And - or perhaps, "and so" - I enjoyed this one.

thenmar 13y ago
That's a good point. People on HN are sometimes a little quick to put on their "it's just a really cool piece of technology!" blinders and ignore the gruesome, wasteful military industrial complex that brought them these "badass fuckin' guns" which do, in fact, kill real humans in real life.
- cobrausn 13y ago
  Nobody is really ignoring the reality of it. These are weapons of war. Not everyone reading HN shares the same outlook on the morality of war. I am personally an anti-war veteran, but that's a personal outlook that comes from some careful deliberation after observing how and why we wage war, and being fairly dissatisfied with both.
- Crito 13y ago
  For whatever it is worth, while obviously a part of the military-industrial complex, the SR-71 was built to spy, not kill. The YF-12 was to kill however.
- joyeuse6701 13y ago
  The beauty of technology is it's ability to overcome obstacles and act as solutions to a problem. I do not find that the morality of the problem can tarnish it.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Really? Not ever? I hate to go all Godwins on this, but it is the most extreme counter point I can think of. Gas chambers...
    - joyeuse6701 13y ago
      Need to exterminate roaches quickly? Gas chamber your house. Save yourself from numerous diseases... I mean c'mon, you couldn't think of any legit use of poison gas technology?
mpyne 13y ago
It's really important to separate the tools from the intent IMHO. Just as one can use a butcher knife for its intended purpose or use it to kill, it's possible to design military equipment to "kill people and break things" without necessarily meaning to wage aggressive warfare. It's true that the military tools are often misused, but that wouldn't change in the real world by simply not having them; pacifist countries are sheep in a field full of wolves. Just look at Ukraine, and then compare to nations that e.g. gave up nuclear weapons and then suffered "regime change". The list includes Libya, parts of Ukraine, and effectively Iraq (who were very close to a nuke circa 1991). There's a reason Iran and North Korea want the bomb, and that reason is because the deterrent value is real, not imagined. Rather it's the same as an underlying principle behind the Second Amendment push (no one cares for my defense more than I care for my defense), scaled up to the geopolitical level. So just as I think it's possible to appreciate the craftsmanship and design that goes into a well-made katana even if you don't intend to run the sword through someone's guts, I think it's possible to appreciate at a technical level some of the technology used in military gear without feeling like it means you support war. ;)
- thematt 13y ago
  One could also argue that the SR-71 was a tool that prevented death rather than facilitated it -- by delivering intelligence. It was a reconnaissance aircraft and despite being operated by the Air Force the payload of the Blackbird was never weaponized.
  - dasmoth 13y ago
    An interceptor variant reached the prototype stage. Ant one point, quite a few were on order. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_YF-12
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  It's really important to separate the tools from the intent IMHO. First thing I'll say: I'm not sure I've reached a conclusion regarding that statement or not. But I've been leaning rather more strongly to the idea that things can be classified as beneficial vs. otherwise. Though sometimes counterintuitively. One of the more interesting hypotheticals I've run across recently is the Paperclip Maximizer example: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer The paperclip maximizer is the canonical thought experiment showing how an artificial general intelligence, even one designed competently and without malice, could ultimately destroy humanity. The thought experiment assumes an AI stable structure of goals or values, and shows that AIs with apparently innocuous values could pose an existential threat. The idea: any simple-minded optimization behavior which doesn't take into consideration human values can, taken to the logical extreme, prove hazardous. It was posted to HN a few years ago, though it didn't trigger much discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1747413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1747413
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mladenkovacevic 13y ago
Maybe the NSA is trying to give us a smooth transition back into Cold War mode with the Russians.
dba7dba 13y ago
Internet exists ONLY because of War Machinery. Imo, the whole electronics (tv, computer, chip) industry advanced as much as it did due to the War Machinery.

by to3m 13y ago

thenmar 13y ago

That's a good point. People on HN are sometimes a little quick to put on their "it's just a really cool piece of technology!" blinders and ignore the gruesome, wasteful military industrial complex that brought them these "badass fuckin' guns" which do, in fact, kill real humans in real life.

cobrausn 13y ago
Nobody is really ignoring the reality of it. These are weapons of war. Not everyone reading HN shares the same outlook on the morality of war. I am personally an anti-war veteran, but that's a personal outlook that comes from some careful deliberation after observing how and why we wage war, and being fairly dissatisfied with both.
Crito 13y ago
For whatever it is worth, while obviously a part of the military-industrial complex, the SR-71 was built to spy, not kill. The YF-12 was to kill however.
joyeuse6701 13y ago
The beauty of technology is it's ability to overcome obstacles and act as solutions to a problem. I do not find that the morality of the problem can tarnish it.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Really? Not ever? I hate to go all Godwins on this, but it is the most extreme counter point I can think of. Gas chambers...
  - joyeuse6701 13y ago
    Need to exterminate roaches quickly? Gas chamber your house. Save yourself from numerous diseases... I mean c'mon, you couldn't think of any legit use of poison gas technology?

mpyne 13y ago

It's really important to separate the tools from the intent IMHO. Just as one can use a butcher knife for its intended purpose or use it to kill, it's possible to design military equipment to "kill people and break things" without necessarily meaning to wage aggressive warfare. It's true that the military tools are often misused, but that wouldn't change in the real world by simply not having them; pacifist countries are sheep in a field full of wolves. Just look at Ukraine, and then compare to nations that e.g. gave up nuclear weapons and then suffered "regime change". The list includes Libya, parts of Ukraine, and effectively Iraq (who were very close to a nuke circa 1991). There's a reason Iran and North Korea want the bomb, and that reason is because the deterrent value is real, not imagined. Rather it's the same as an underlying principle behind the Second Amendment push (no one cares for my defense more than I care for my defense), scaled up to the geopolitical level. So just as I think it's possible to appreciate the craftsmanship and design that goes into a well-made katana even if you don't intend to run the sword through someone's guts, I think it's possible to appreciate at a technical level some of the technology used in military gear without feeling like it means you support war. ;)

thematt 13y ago
One could also argue that the SR-71 was a tool that prevented death rather than facilitated it -- by delivering intelligence. It was a reconnaissance aircraft and despite being operated by the Air Force the payload of the Blackbird was never weaponized.
- dasmoth 13y ago
  An interceptor variant reached the prototype stage. Ant one point, quite a few were on order. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_YF-12
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dredmorbius 13y ago
It's really important to separate the tools from the intent IMHO. First thing I'll say: I'm not sure I've reached a conclusion regarding that statement or not. But I've been leaning rather more strongly to the idea that things can be classified as beneficial vs. otherwise. Though sometimes counterintuitively. One of the more interesting hypotheticals I've run across recently is the Paperclip Maximizer example: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer The paperclip maximizer is the canonical thought experiment showing how an artificial general intelligence, even one designed competently and without malice, could ultimately destroy humanity. The thought experiment assumes an AI stable structure of goals or values, and shows that AIs with apparently innocuous values could pose an existential threat. The idea: any simple-minded optimization behavior which doesn't take into consideration human values can, taken to the logical extreme, prove hazardous. It was posted to HN a few years ago, though it didn't trigger much discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1747413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1747413

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mladenkovacevic 13y ago

Maybe the NSA is trying to give us a smooth transition back into Cold War mode with the Russians.

dba7dba 13y ago

Internet exists ONLY because of War Machinery. Imo, the whole electronics (tv, computer, chip) industry advanced as much as it did due to the War Machinery.