5 ms·

Or, people who needlessly went to college take jobs they would be doing anyway.

antr 13y ago
either way, those with a degree take the job – although I don't see enough data in the article to justify such title
lotsofmangos 13y ago
Yeah, who do they think they are? Going off and learning things willy-nilly without considering whether their increase in knowledge is economically necessary. They could have put that time to use by just starting work earlier. Not they would have got the job if they had started earlier, as it would have gone to someone with higher qualifications, no doubt also needlessly acquired of course...
- aestra 13y ago
  Having a history degree doesn't exactly make you more qualified to be a bartender (going by the example in the article).
  - kokey 13y ago
    I'm not sure, I think in the UK it's a fairly common assumption that a history degree means you'll most likely be operating a beer tap to pay the bills. This is also useful in most pubs since they are a few centuries old.
    - aestra 13y ago
      >in the UK it's a fairly common assumption... This story was about the US. >This is also useful in most pubs since they are a few centuries old. And? I've been to a pub in the US that was 3 centuries old and thought to be the first building in the city (used to be a private residence). The building's history was probably part of the orientation, and it isn't like it is hard to memorize. Having a history degree doesn't make him more qualified to talk about it, it isn't like the history of pubs is included in the undergraduate (or even graduate) curriculum. >assumption that a history degree means you'll most likely be operating a beer tap to pay the bills Yea, a history degree is known to be pretty "useless" to most people who obtain one, that doesn't mean one is more qualified because they have one, it just means there is very little one can do with a history degree.
  - lotsofmangos 13y ago
    Learning history is an end in and of itself though. You don't need to have an application in mind to justify getting a degree.
    - danielweber 13y ago
      As consumption -- "I want to know about history" -- it's great. As investment -- "I want a degree to get a better job" -- it may not be good for the individual, and for society it's probably a net negative, because the benefits to your human capital are minimal while you are putting more resources into a zero-sum status competition. Now, it's perfectly okay to have consumption, but you shouldn't confuse it for an investment. Spending 4 years backpacking across Europe also sounds like an awesome time, another end unto itself, but you shouldn't borrow money you don't have to do it.
      - lotsofmangos 13y ago
        Not all returns on investments are financial. Spending money improving the level of history knowledge in a population can have paybacks that range from better national security through to the quality of art. These things are very hard to quantify and to just look on their direct financial return gives a very poor measure.
- davidw 13y ago
  There are plenty of ways of learning things. I consider myself as well-learned as most college-educated people I know, and I never had any student debts. I'm also incredibly lucky to be in a field where the lack of a degree is not a problem, but perhaps this will be more common in the future.
  - zanny 13y ago
    It is also their choice to put themselves in as much debt as they want. And it is an employers choice to hire someone with a piece of paper for arbitrary reasons. The problems aren't with trying to change the minds of millions of people, it is with reconciling a system that no longer works because we are still operating under the false tautology that human labor, of any kind, has value.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  Let us combine with the story earlier from the week about the SAT test being changed. Having a college education is marketed very heavily in this society and what do the ACT and SAT have use for other than determining which colleges are open to a student. With High Schools pushing these tests hard they in turn are pushing students to college even when it might not be the best choice. Don't underestimate the power that marketing has. Between state and privates schools there is a lot of money to be had and it only keeps working if they can convince each generation that the education they provide is indispensable
lucasnemeth 13y ago
Do you sincerely think History is a complete waste of time, a useless human endeavor? You see... It would be great if people had better history/sociology knowledge, I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a technocratic dystopia. The fact that these fields are seem as "useless" is a terrible thing.
- Dirlewanger 13y ago
  No one's picking on history speficially, relax...the bigger point is that in the past decade or so high schools across the US have been needlessly pushing everyone to at least strongly consider college, and many buy into the hype. Why do you think roughly only 30% graduate? Some just are not cut out for that pace.
- turnip1979 13y ago
  Studying history is not a useless endeavor. Taking a 100K loan to do it is.
- Perdition 13y ago
  Why do you need to go to university to to improve your knowledge of history or sociology? A degree in history or sociology is seen as useless because it mostly is outside academia. The people who are good in the field will most likely end up on the academic track, and those who aren't will most likely end up in low paying jobs having wasted several years and tens of thousands of dollars. The problem isn't history or sociology degrees, it is people thinking that a degree is a ticket to a good job.
  - jrs99 13y ago
    But the guy in the article wants to be a High School teacher. It's not like the guy wants to be some historian at some institution. And a college degree is probably something you really want if you want to become a High School teacher. Is it wrong for him to think that he needs a college degree in order to teach high school? What are his chances of teaching high school WITHOUT a degree?
    - 13y ago
rayiner 13y ago
And the savvy kids who skipped college now can't get the job they'd otherwise have because employers think: "why hire him when we can get a college graduate for the job?" I think too many people go to college, but credential inflation isn't something you can opt out of. You shouldn't need a college degree to be an office assistant, but when the market is flooded with college graduates willing to work that job, you don't stand a chance.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  "why hire him when we can get a college graduate for the job?" Maybe the market will some day find that the ones that didn't go to college are valuable as well, usually know how to deal with unexpected situations better and learned more things "on the job" while the college ones were dabbing in theory. Theoretical studies are nice, but it's one thing to study something theoretically, another, to experience it.
  - levosmetalo 13y ago
    That's comparing apples and oranges. There's no reason someone will take someone that didn't go to college instead of someone that did if both are equally inexperienced.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Employers have very little incentive to look beyond their usual filters for "diamonds in the rough." Especially when it comes to lower-level, lower-paying positions.
  - danielweber 13y ago
    The market can still irrational longer than you can stay unemployed. :( That's assuming that the college degree is a worthless signal, BTW. The scary thing is that the college degree probably is a useful signal. It's an insanely expensive one in terms of time and money, though. And after you finish your undergraduate, you may find out that there is a new, more expensive, longer signal that you are expected to complete to be an office assistant.
  - 13y ago

antr 13y ago

either way, those with a degree take the job – although I don't see enough data in the article to justify such title

Yeah, who do they think they are? Going off and learning things willy-nilly without considering whether their increase in knowledge is economically necessary. They could have put that time to use by just starting work earlier. Not they would have got the job if they had started earlier, as it would have gone to someone with higher qualifications, no doubt also needlessly acquired of course...

aestra 13y ago
Having a history degree doesn't exactly make you more qualified to be a bartender (going by the example in the article).
- kokey 13y ago
  I'm not sure, I think in the UK it's a fairly common assumption that a history degree means you'll most likely be operating a beer tap to pay the bills. This is also useful in most pubs since they are a few centuries old.
  - aestra 13y ago
    >in the UK it's a fairly common assumption... This story was about the US. >This is also useful in most pubs since they are a few centuries old. And? I've been to a pub in the US that was 3 centuries old and thought to be the first building in the city (used to be a private residence). The building's history was probably part of the orientation, and it isn't like it is hard to memorize. Having a history degree doesn't make him more qualified to talk about it, it isn't like the history of pubs is included in the undergraduate (or even graduate) curriculum. >assumption that a history degree means you'll most likely be operating a beer tap to pay the bills Yea, a history degree is known to be pretty "useless" to most people who obtain one, that doesn't mean one is more qualified because they have one, it just means there is very little one can do with a history degree.
- lotsofmangos 13y ago
  Learning history is an end in and of itself though. You don't need to have an application in mind to justify getting a degree.
  - danielweber 13y ago
    As consumption -- "I want to know about history" -- it's great. As investment -- "I want a degree to get a better job" -- it may not be good for the individual, and for society it's probably a net negative, because the benefits to your human capital are minimal while you are putting more resources into a zero-sum status competition. Now, it's perfectly okay to have consumption, but you shouldn't confuse it for an investment. Spending 4 years backpacking across Europe also sounds like an awesome time, another end unto itself, but you shouldn't borrow money you don't have to do it.
    - lotsofmangos 13y ago
      Not all returns on investments are financial. Spending money improving the level of history knowledge in a population can have paybacks that range from better national security through to the quality of art. These things are very hard to quantify and to just look on their direct financial return gives a very poor measure.
davidw 13y ago
There are plenty of ways of learning things. I consider myself as well-learned as most college-educated people I know, and I never had any student debts. I'm also incredibly lucky to be in a field where the lack of a degree is not a problem, but perhaps this will be more common in the future.
- zanny 13y ago
  It is also their choice to put themselves in as much debt as they want. And it is an employers choice to hire someone with a piece of paper for arbitrary reasons. The problems aren't with trying to change the minds of millions of people, it is with reconciling a system that no longer works because we are still operating under the false tautology that human labor, of any kind, has value.
Shivetya 13y ago
Let us combine with the story earlier from the week about the SAT test being changed. Having a college education is marketed very heavily in this society and what do the ACT and SAT have use for other than determining which colleges are open to a student. With High Schools pushing these tests hard they in turn are pushing students to college even when it might not be the best choice. Don't underestimate the power that marketing has. Between state and privates schools there is a lot of money to be had and it only keeps working if they can convince each generation that the education they provide is indispensable

lucasnemeth 13y ago

Do you sincerely think History is a complete waste of time, a useless human endeavor? You see... It would be great if people had better history/sociology knowledge, I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a technocratic dystopia. The fact that these fields are seem as "useless" is a terrible thing.

Dirlewanger 13y ago
No one's picking on history speficially, relax...the bigger point is that in the past decade or so high schools across the US have been needlessly pushing everyone to at least strongly consider college, and many buy into the hype. Why do you think roughly only 30% graduate? Some just are not cut out for that pace.
turnip1979 13y ago
Studying history is not a useless endeavor. Taking a 100K loan to do it is.
Perdition 13y ago
Why do you need to go to university to to improve your knowledge of history or sociology? A degree in history or sociology is seen as useless because it mostly is outside academia. The people who are good in the field will most likely end up on the academic track, and those who aren't will most likely end up in low paying jobs having wasted several years and tens of thousands of dollars. The problem isn't history or sociology degrees, it is people thinking that a degree is a ticket to a good job.
- jrs99 13y ago
  But the guy in the article wants to be a High School teacher. It's not like the guy wants to be some historian at some institution. And a college degree is probably something you really want if you want to become a High School teacher. Is it wrong for him to think that he needs a college degree in order to teach high school? What are his chances of teaching high school WITHOUT a degree?
  - 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago

And the savvy kids who skipped college now can't get the job they'd otherwise have because employers think: "why hire him when we can get a college graduate for the job?" I think too many people go to college, but credential inflation isn't something you can opt out of. You shouldn't need a college degree to be an office assistant, but when the market is flooded with college graduates willing to work that job, you don't stand a chance.

raverbashing 13y ago
"why hire him when we can get a college graduate for the job?" Maybe the market will some day find that the ones that didn't go to college are valuable as well, usually know how to deal with unexpected situations better and learned more things "on the job" while the college ones were dabbing in theory. Theoretical studies are nice, but it's one thing to study something theoretically, another, to experience it.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  That's comparing apples and oranges. There's no reason someone will take someone that didn't go to college instead of someone that did if both are equally inexperienced.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Employers have very little incentive to look beyond their usual filters for "diamonds in the rough." Especially when it comes to lower-level, lower-paying positions.
- danielweber 13y ago
  The market can still irrational longer than you can stay unemployed. :( That's assuming that the college degree is a worthless signal, BTW. The scary thing is that the college degree probably is a useful signal. It's an insanely expensive one in terms of time and money, though. And after you finish your undergraduate, you may find out that there is a new, more expensive, longer signal that you are expected to complete to be an office assistant.
- 13y ago